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"Appointed unto men ONCE to die" contradicts the rapture's "translation" myth

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  • "Appointed unto men ONCE to die" contradicts the rapture's "translation" myth

    "The scriptures cannot be broken", we are told, so any apparent contradictions in its pages are a result from our not understanding what we are reading, or sometimes a result of variations between scripture versions. The Christian majority believes that a "translation" type of change for the bodies of LIVING believers who have not yet died is supposed to occur when they see Christ return. This mistaken belief is a direct contradiction of the Hebrews 9:27 text. All of mankind is appointed to die the ONE TIME, with a judgment which comes after that death. There is actually not a single scripture that teaches a translation-type of change for the bodies of LIVING believers when Christ returns. Only a change for the bodies of DEAD believers in a resurrection to incorruptibility.

    Not even I Thessalonians 4 teaches a "translation" type of change for the living (when Paul described just how the coming "rapture" event would occur). The passage about the "living and remaining" believers who would be caught up together with the resurrected saints makes absolutely no mention whatever of their being "translated" before they are caught up to meet the Lord together in the air. It is PRESUMED that these "living" ones are "translated", but scripture never says that is what happens to them. That is because these "living and REMAINING" saints Paul spoke of were those such as the Matthew 27:52-53 saints who in that first century had ALREADY been resurrected to life and been given their change to incorruptibility, but who had "remained" on earth to serve Christ "for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ..." (Ephesians 4:8-12). Those "First-fruits" resurrected saints from Matt. 27:52-53 were still living among the believers, as Paul told the Roman believers in Romans 8:23. That's not the "Fruit of the Spirit" of love, joy, peace, etc. Paul was speaking about there. It's something else entirely. The "FIRST-fruits of the Spirit" that the Roman believers had among them were those 144,000 First-fruits saints raised to life along with "Christ the First-fruits" in the First resurrection of AD 33. They had been reserved for a special purpose, and had "remained" on earth; still present and circulating among the churches in those first-century days just prior to Christ's soon-promised return.

    Neither did Paul teach a translation-type of change in I Corinthians 15:51-55 when he gave details about the change of the bodies of DEAD believers at Christ's return. When Paul told the Corinthians, "We shall *NOT* ALL sleep, but we shall all be changed" he was reassuring the believers that NONE OF THEM would remain behind sleeping in the grave at Christ's return, but that ALL of the dead believers would then be changed into incorruptible, resurrected body forms at that time. This verse has mistakenly been taken to imply that "We shall not all have died by the time Christ returns, but dead or alive, we believers shall all be either changed from death to an incorruptible state or will be translated into that state, depending on whether we have died or not."

    It is simple to refute this misunderstanding of the way this I Cor. 15:51 verse reads by comparing it with another verse that is phrased exactly the same way in I John 2:19. Speaking of the anti-christs who had gone out from among the church members, John said "...they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were *NOT* ALL OF US." If we were consistent in interpreting this "NOT ALL" phrase in I John 2:19 the very same way I Cor. 15:51 is usually interpreted, would that mean that SOME of those anti-christs actually were an EXCEPTION to John's statement? Certainly not. John meant that their going out from the church manifested that NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THOSE ANTI-CHRIST TYPES truly belonged as part of the assembly. No exceptions. In the same way, I Cor. 15:51's phrase "We shall *NOT* ALL sleep..." meant that NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM WOULD SLEEP at Christ's return, but that ALL of the believers sleeping in the grave - without an exception - would be changed in a moment into the incorruptible state at the resurrection.

    The rapture doctrine as commonly interpreted needs a bit of revision to remain true to other scripture...

  • #2
    How do you explain Enoch?


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by mossrose View Post
      How do you explain Enoch?
      Or Elijah, or any of the small r resurrections in the Bible. I doubt any of them were considered under this particular interpretation.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi mossrose and cerebrum123,

        The SINGLE case of the translated Enoch is the LONE, UNIQUE EXAMPLE of a translation given to us in scripture for a very specific reason. Enoch is the very same individual introduced to us later as Melchizedek - the high priest who was king of Salem, who had no recorded beginning of days and an “endless life”, and with no children. Melchizedek was STILL ALIVE as Hebrews was being written (Hebrews 7:8), which probably explains why Jude and Peter were still able to quote Enoch in their epistles.

        This “great man” Melchizedek appears out of the blue with no other biography than that given to us in Hebrews and Genesis. Enoch / Melchizedek was given that “endless life (in a translation change without death) so that he could provide the SINGLE example of a deathless high priesthood, prefiguring Christ’s endless life in an enduring high priesthood, “made after the order of Melchizedek”. Enoch / Melchizedek was a unique, single example of a translation because CHRIST was going to be unique in His high priesthood under the New Covenant.

        As for Elijah, he died naturally sometime after he was TRANSPORTED by the whirlwind into the atmosphere (“AS IT WERE into heaven” in the LXX) to another location on earth. We know this because he was still on earth about 10 years after that whirlwind transport, writing a reproving letter to king Jehoram in II Chronicles 21:12.

        As for all the rest of the examples of resurrected individuals in scripture, NONE OF THEM DIED TWICE. That would contradict Hebrews 9:27. They ALL “lived and remained” on earth in that incorruptible, resurrected state until they were finally raptured in the AD 70 return of Christ. We KNOW that none of them went bodily to heaven until then, because Christ Himself testified to Nicodemus that “NO MAN HATH ASCENDED TO HEAVEN...” by that point in time.

        There is a specific reason for that formerly-restricted access to heaven for any resurrected individuals from either the OT or the NT who were raised to life again miraculously. That is because CHRIST absolutely HAD TO BE THE *FIRST* to ascend to the Father in a glorified, resurrected, human body. This earned Jesus the unique title of the “FIRST-begotten” of that whole 144,000 “FIRST-fruits” group of the “FIRST resurrection” event in AD 33 (all those Matthew 27:52-53 saints).

        Birth order in this respect of a resurrected human body ascending to the Father was absolutely paramount. It was the reason that all first-born males were dedicated to God in the OT, to provide a picture of what Christ the “FIRST-begotten” would do for us in “opening up the matrix” of access to the presence of the Father in heaven.

        Revelation 15:8 tells us exactly WHEN that access to heaven’s temple and the presence of God was finally opened up for the glorified bodies of resurrected individuals to enter. It was at the end of the seven plagues listed in Revelation, which were ALL soon to be concluded in John’s near future, as Revelation 1:3 and 22:10 made abundantly clear.

        The “rapture” event of I Thess 4 took place in AD 70, when all those “living and remaining” previously-resurrected saints joined the newly-resurrected saints and met the Lord together in the air above the Mount of Olives to return to heaven with Him then. When Christ comes for us in the future for the final THIRD resurrection, there will be no need to “rapture” us off this planet, which He will then purge of all remaining human iniquity.
        Last edited by 3 Resurrections; 03-27-2021, 11:00 AM.

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        • #5
          In every orthodox eschatology view, there will be some living humans that won't sleep but will be changed. Unless you think the human species will go extinct first and then the Resurrection?
          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
            Hi mossrose and cerebrum123,

            The SINGLE case of the translated Enoch is the LONE, UNIQUE EXAMPLE of a translation given to us in scripture for a very specific reason. Enoch is the very same individual introduced to us later as Melchizedek - the high priest who was king of Salem, who had no recorded beginning of days and an “endless life”, and with no children. Melchizedek was STILL ALIVE as Hebrews was being written (Hebrews 7:8), which probably explains why Jude and Peter were still able to quote Enoch in their epistles.

            This “great man” Melchizedek appears out of the blue with no other biography than that given to us in Hebrews and Genesis. Enoch / Melchizedek was given that “endless life (in a translation change without death) so that he could provide the SINGLE example of a deathless high priesthood, prefiguring Christ’s endless life in an enduring high priesthood, “made after the order of Melchizedek”. Enoch / Melchizedek was a unique, single example of a translation because CHRIST was going to be unique in His high priesthood under the New Covenant.

            As for Elijah, he died naturally sometime after he was TRANSPORTED by the whirlwind into the atmosphere (“AS IT WERE into heaven” in the LXX) to another location on earth. We know this because he was still on earth about 10 years after that whirlwind transport, writing a reproving letter to king Jehoram in II Chronicles 21:12.

            As for all the rest of the examples of resurrected individuals in scripture, NONE OF THEM DIED TWICE. That would contradict Hebrews 9:27. They ALL “lived and remained” on earth in that incorruptible, resurrected state until they were finally raptured in the AD 70 return of Christ. We KNOW that none of them went bodily to heaven until then, because Christ Himself testified to Nicodemus that “NO MAN HATH ASCENDED TO HEAVEN...” by that point in time.

            There is a specific reason for that formerly-restricted access to heaven for any resurrected individuals from either the OT or the NT who were raised to life again miraculously. That is because CHRIST absolutely HAD TO BE THE *FIRST* to ascend to the Father in a glorified, resurrected, human body. This earned Jesus the unique title of the “FIRST-begotten” of that whole 144,000 “FIRST-fruits” group of the “FIRST resurrection” event in AD 33 (all those Matthew 27:52-53 saints).

            Birth order in this respect of a resurrected human body ascending to the Father was absolutely paramount. It was the reason that all first-born males were dedicated to God in the OT, to provide a picture of what Christ the “FIRST-begotten” would do for us in “opening up the matrix” of access to the presence of the Father in heaven.

            Revelation 15:8 tells us exactly WHEN that access to heaven’s temple and the presence of God was finally opened up for the glorified bodies of resurrected individuals to enter. It was at the end of the seven plagues listed in Revelation, which were ALL soon to be concluded in John’s near future, as Revelation 1:3 and 22:10 made abundantly clear.

            The “rapture” event of I Thess 4 took place in AD 70, when all those “living and remaining” previously-resurrected saints joined the newly-resurrected saints and met the Lord together in the air above the Mount of Olives to return to heaven with Him then. When Christ comes for us in the future for the final THIRD resurrection, there will be no need to “rapture” us off this planet, which He will then purge of all remaining human iniquity.
            No. Just no.



            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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            • #7
              Hi Christianbookworm,

              Well, we know that no one in an ordinary mortal living state can look upon God and survive. That’s what Moses was told when he begged to be allowed to see God’s face. God’s utter holiness is so intense that He is called a “consuming fire”. When God in the person of Jesus returns in our future for the third resurrection, everyone living on the planet exposed to that supreme glory will die from the experience - including believers. They are the only ones that Christ will immediately raise to life again afterwards, because only the wicked in the judgment will “consume away”, by being destroyed both body and soul.

              I believe this experience of seeing the full glory of God’s face might very well have been what killed Moses on Mount Nebo. We know that Moses’s natural strength was not abated in his old age, so it had to be something extraordinary that immediately killed him when he went up Mount Nebo and died, after which the Lord buried Moses. I can’t think of a more exalted way for Moses to die than to have God finally show His full glory to him as the very last thing he saw while still alive. It was what he had once asked for, so maybe God granted him that death wish.

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              • #8
                Sorry all the scripture I presented doesn’t give you pause for thought, mossrose. I know...it also goes against any of the premillennial dispensational training I was ever taught as well. And the fundamentalist Christian schools I went to in my youth did a thorough job of teaching that to me back then. I used to love Larkin’s charts as a pre-teen. But later on, premil.-disp. teaching raised far too many questions and left too many of them unanswered for me to continue believing most of that. Eight years of independent scripture study of eschatology has done some major adjustment of what I once thought was orthodox doctrine.

                What all this above DOES do is keep scripture consistent with itself with NO internal contradictions. Can you say the same for your paradigm? How do YOU explain Hebrews 9:27 away?
                Last edited by 3 Resurrections; 03-27-2021, 11:43 AM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by mossrose View Post

                  No. Just no.
                  Yeah, no.
                  "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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                  • #10
                    Mortality will be clothed in immortality. Ever read 1 Corinthians?
                    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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                    • #11
                      Is this a version of hyper-preterism that Dee used to talk about? If so, this would be a first for me. Never met a hyper-preterist before.
                      "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seanD View Post
                        Is this a version of hyper-preterism that Dee used to talk about? If so, this would be a first for me. Never met a hyper-preterist before.
                        We had a guy who described something very similar to hyper-preterism recently, but he wouldn't really answer anything specific when questioned.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hey again Christianbookworm,

                          Of course, to be sure, for the believer, "mortality will put on immortality". But what that I Cor. 15:53 verse is describing is the change to immortality of the same DEAD bodies of the saints into their living, incorruptible forms, equipped for a face-to-face eternity with God. That verse is NOT describing a translation-type of change for the bodies of LIVING believers who have never died yet. You've got to read the whole context. "So, when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, THEN shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, 'DEATH is swallowed up in victory'. O DEATH, where is thy sting? O GRAVE, where is thy victory?" This is a promised victory over THE GRAVE which cannot hold the dead bodies of believers in its grip. The bodily resurrection for us will see to that. It's the same hope Job anticipated when he said "If a man DIE, shall he live again? All the days of my appointed time will I wait, TILL MY *CHANGE* COME." Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands." (Job. 14:14-15).

                          This is definitely NOT hyper-Preterist teaching. They typically deny any physical resurrection of the dead bodies of the saints. In contrast to them, I am a H U G E supporter of a bodily resurrection for the saints. So much so, that I see scripture teaching about THREE separate bodily resurrection events over the total span of human history. Two of these events have already occurred. One is yet to come for us in the distant future. It will not be soon. Sorry to disappoint.


                          These are a few other points where the Full-Preterist position and I do NOT align: I believe that...


                          Scripture teaches a LITERAL thousand-year millennium in Revelation 20, that ended in AD 33 with Christ and that First resurrection in which He led out of the grave the Matthew 27:52-53, 144,000 "First-fruits" "remnant of the dead" saints.

                          Scripture lays out a pattern for no less and no more than THREE main bodily resurrection events staged to have taken place on Passover AD 33, Pentecost Day in AD 70, and the final future one for us at the time of year the Feast of Tabernacles would have ordinarily been celebrated back in the Old Covenant.

                          Christ BODILY returned to the Mount of Olives in AD 70 to resurrect the saints, as He had promised, to "receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also". AD 70 dated earthquake landslide rubble layers are lying on the slopes of the Mount of Olives today, proving the fulfilment of the Zechariah 14:4-5 (LXX) prophecy.

                          The I Thess. 4 rapture was a literal raising of the saints' physical bodies out of the dust of the grave in AD 70 on that year's Pentecost feast Day.

                          Satan was NOT bound at the cross; instead, he was LOOSED from his millennial chain by being cast out of heaven to the earth after Christ's first ascension on His resurrection day in AD 33. Satan knew he had only a SHORT TIME before he and his angels would be first imprisoned in Jerusalem, and then totally destroyed in Jerusalem's Lake of Fire in AD 70, as scripture testifies in several places.

                          Emperor Nero was NOT the one called the "Man of Lawlessness", since he never was physically present in the Old Jerusalem temple claiming to be God, as the Zealot leader Menahem actually did in AD 66.

                          The number 666 is NOT figured out by the gematria process. It stands for the calculated number of YEARS that the Sea Beast had existed prior to John's writing Revelation.

                          That book of Revelation was written somewhere between late AD 59 and early AD 60, just before the AD 60 Laodicean earthquake.

                          The eight "KINGS of the earth" in Rev. 17:10-11 were NOT the Roman emperors. They were the 8 high priesthood members of Annas's family who served as high priest one after the other in the years from AD 6 until AD 66. "Kings of the earth" is Christ's name for the high priests of Israel.

                          There are no less than THREE Beasts found in Revelation: the Sea Beast, the Land Beast, and the Scarlet Beast found in the wilderness. Different biographies and characteristics for all three. The first beast was Roman, and the last two beasts were Judean.

                          Christ currently STILL retains His glorified, resurrected body form that "passed into the heavens", and is now interceding for us as a high priest on His throne - the mercy seat in heaven's temple.

                          There are no less than 7 millennial ages that will form the total of all of fallen mankind's history on this planet. We are currently finishing up the sixth millennium age, and are soon about to pass into the 7th one - in 2033.

                          I'm a no-gap proponent of Daniel's 70-week prophecy, lasting from Artaxerxes I's decree in 454 BC until AD 37.


                          I could keep going, but you get the idea. I don't fall into any one category, so I'm a hybrid, I guess. "I ain't got no home." And to my knowledge, I have NEVER dodged an honest question. I've promised Darfius a post on "How many ages are there?", which I fully intend to deliver.

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                          • #14
                            Are you Jehovah's Witness?


                            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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                            • #15
                              I've never heard of anyone putting the Millennium before the crucifixion....
                              If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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