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"Appointed unto men ONCE to die" contradicts the rapture's "translation" myth

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  • Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
    Sparko, John didn't just experience prophetic visions of what was FUTURE for him. In Revelation 1:19, Christ told John, "Write the things which thou hast seen" (PAST events), "and the things which are" (PRESENTLY occurring in John's days), "and the things which are ABOUT TO TAKE PLACE after these." (in John's NEAR FUTURE). This allows for John to have seen things which had occurred in the past, such as the martyrdom of of Antipas, the "Woman" giving birth to Jesus the man-child, who was then caught up in His ascension to the Father's throne. Likewise a PAST millennium which had expired in John's recent experience, as Revelation 12:12 shows us when compared to Rev. 20:3 & 7.

    There is too much internal evidence in Revelation and the rest of scripture that pins down the composition date of Revelation to somewhere between late AD 59 and early AD 60. This was just before the cataclysmic AD 60 Laodicean earthquake when God was "ABOUT TO spue thee out of my mouth". I've enumerated all this internal evidence at the following link below, if it's permissible to include that here. If not, then if you need to edit that out, I can mention each of those points individually as I have time. Perhaps on another post devoted to that theme.

    http://www.gracecentered.com/christi...ation-written/ Starting at comment # 14.
    No 3, you are wrong. the past and current events are in the letters to the churches, After which Jesus says for John to come hither and he will show him what comes in the future:

    Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.


    All of the events from that point forward are in the future. Therefore it can't be talking about what happened in 33 AD. And since Revelation was written in 95AD, even 70AD was in the past.

    Comment


    • Afternoon, Sparko,

      Just one question: did you take the time to review the material I presented on the link I gave concerning internal evidence for the early date of Revelation's composition? Not that you are at all under any obligation to do so, but it would help if I didn't have to take time to repeat it all here. There is some very solid internal evidence in Revelation that confirms an early date. And it has by no means been a universal scholastic approach to date Revelation in the 90's. Actually, I believe it has been of a more recent tendency to give Revelation a late date. Even my KJV appendix notes state a view that favors the early date composition. For myself, the internal evidence within scripture itself overrides any other external considerations.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
        Afternoon, Sparko,

        Just one question: did you take the time to review the material I presented on the link I gave concerning internal evidence for the early date of Revelation's composition? Not that you are at all under any obligation to do so, but it would help if I didn't have to take time to repeat it all here. There is some very solid internal evidence in Revelation that confirms an early date. And it has by no means been a universal scholastic approach to date Revelation in the 90's. Actually, I believe it has been of a more recent tendency to give Revelation a late date. Even my KJV appendix notes state a view that favors the early date composition. For myself, the internal evidence within scripture itself overrides any other external considerations.
        Unless you can prove that Revelation was written before 33AD (your date for the "first" resurrection and end of the 1000 years) then my point stands.

        Comment


        • Not to mention she's provided no eyewitness testimony of those supposed resurrections.
          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

          Comment


          • According to your point, Sparko, if everything written by John after he first addressed the 7 churches was going to be future to the AD 90’s, (when you believe Revelation was written), then the ascension of the man child Jesus in Rev. 12 to His Father’s throne after His resurrection was ALSO going to take place after the AD 90’s. I don’t think that’s the point you want to make, but that’s the natural result of your line of reasoning.

            Anything of this type of past event (like Christ’s ascension to His Father’s throne in Rev.12, as well as the end of the Rev. 20 millennium at that same point in time, with the enthroned 12 disciples judging the early church) was put there to serve as a sort of biographical backdrop - like stage props - to provide the setting for the immediate future events that were about to be performed by those characters. That “man child” was “ABOUT TO RULE ALL NATIONS with a rod of iron”, not long after John was writing Revelation.

            Because everything prophetic for the future that was unsealed and revealed in Revelation was part of the events that were all “at hand” (presently near for that first- century generation - Rev. 1:3 and 22:10), or they were “ABOUT TO BE HEREAFTER” for John’s readers (Rev. 1:19). This near fulfillment would still be true, regardless of whether Revelation was written in the AD 90’s, or in late AD 59-early AD 60, as I am proposing.

            What cataclysmic, earth shattering events do we have recorded for the mid-AD 90’s? So far as I know, compared to the traumatic AD 66-70 years, the AD 90’s is a prophetic no-man’s-land that doesn’t live up to all the predicted near-future events given to us in Revelation.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
              According to your point, Sparko, if everything written by John after he first addressed the 7 churches was going to be future to the AD 90’s, (when you believe Revelation was written), then the ascension of the man child Jesus in Rev. 12 to His Father’s throne after His resurrection was ALSO going to take place after the AD 90’s. I don’t think that’s the point you want to make, but that’s the natural result of your line of reasoning.

              Anything of this type of past event (like Christ’s ascension to His Father’s throne in Rev.12, as well as the end of the Rev. 20 millennium at that same point in time, with the enthroned 12 disciples judging the early church) was put there to serve as a sort of biographical backdrop - like stage props - to provide the setting for the immediate future events that were about to be performed by those characters. That “man child” was “ABOUT TO RULE ALL NATIONS with a rod of iron”, not long after John was writing Revelation.

              Because everything prophetic for the future that was unsealed and revealed in Revelation was part of the events that were all “at hand” (presently near for that first- century generation - Rev. 1:3 and 22:10), or they were “ABOUT TO BE HEREAFTER” for John’s readers (Rev. 1:19). This near fulfillment would still be true, regardless of whether Revelation was written in the AD 90’s, or in late AD 59-early AD 60, as I am proposing.

              What cataclysmic, earth shattering events do we have recorded for the mid-AD 90’s? So far as I know, compared to the traumatic AD 66-70 years, the AD 90’s is a prophetic no-man’s-land that doesn’t live up to all the predicted near-future events given to us in Revelation.
              You are doing that thing where you keep sticking your assumptions into the text and then thinking that proves you right.

              Speaking of earth shattering events being recorded, where is it recorded anywhere that a major resurrection and rapture happened in 70AD? How was there even a church left on Earth if all of the Christians were raptured and resurrected in 70AD? And what is the point of resurrecting the dead if they just went to heaven? Weren't they already in heaven?



              There are so many holes in your theory, 3 Res, that it is like a piece of swiss cheese. But trying to point them out to you is pointless because you just make up some other "fact" pulled from thin air to explain them away.

              Comment


              • Hi Christianbookworm, as for the Matthew 27:52-53 saints of the First resurrection, they went into Jerusalem and “were seen of MANY”, as I’m sure you know. Because the mission of the “First-fruits” was to “remain” on earth for a time, to serve in edifying the early church until AD 70.

                As for the second resurrection in AD 70, if you blinked, you missed seeing it. Weren’t they supposed to be changed “in a moment; in the twinkling of an eye”? These resurrected “changed” ones were to be immediately raptured to heaven along with those others who had been made “alive” earlier, but who had “remained” on earth till then.

                If you are visualizing a necessity for multitudes of graves to be disturbed and broken open as evidence that a resurrection occurred - graves don’t HAVE to be broken open for resurrected people to rise. Christ’s bodily resurrection from the sepulcher took place before evening without even moving the stone, which was only rolled back the next morning by the angel so that the women could see that it was empty already. Even the resurrected Christ coming out of the grave before that evening was not witnessed by the Roman guard standing just a few yards away. The resurrected Christ (and all other resurrected persons) had the option of invisibility if He chose to exercise it.

                Besides, that raptured gathering of all the saints in AD 70 was a gathering that converged at the Mount of Olives location. If anything of the AD 70 resurrection was going to be seen, it would have been at THAT location. And we have recorded that all those besieged in Jerusalem (who would have been living eye-witnesses) either died or became prisoners 5 months later by the end of the siege. Perhaps God didn’t want to provide a bunch of hard-copy evidence of that second resurrection, just to test if we would really believe that what He said was all “about to come to pass” in those days ( Luke 21:36).

                The trumpet and the great shout was for the DEAD to hear - not necessarily the living.

                Comment


                • Sparko, of course there was still a church left on earth after the AD 70 rapture. We have historians’ records of Christians returning to Jerusalem from Pella after the war. Because it was ONLY RESURRECTED PEOPLE THAT WERE TO BE BODILY RAPTURED TO HEAVEN. NO TRANSLATED SAINTS that hadn’t ever died yet. That’s the whole point of this post to begin with.


                  The whole purpose for resurrecting the saints’ bodies and taking them to heaven was to re-unite them with their spirit and soul. Our full salvation inheritance is finally perfected when a glorified, deathless spirit, soul, AND body is in a face-to-face fellowship with its Creator. This is what the Full Preterist mistakenly denies. They have no use for the body being resurrected. Fortunately, Christ doesn’t agree with that.

                  Comment


                  • 3 Resurrections, I think you may have missed my last post.

                    Comment


                    • Blind faith is unbiblical
                      If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                      Comment


                      • Christianbookworm, how can it possibly be “unbiblical blind faith” to believe Jesus and His statement that ALL those things listed in Luke 21 were “ABOUT TO come to pass”? That means everything in Luke 21:7-36 leading up to and INCLUDING “the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.” (Luke 21:27).

                        The disciples had just asked Jesus in Luke 21:7, “Teacher, when then will these things be? and what the sign when these things are ABOUT TO TAKE PLACE?” Everything in that list Christ gave to them He said was ABOUT TO occur before their generation passed away. The disciples and their generation were “ABOUT TO” experience ALL of that list of events.

                        I missed all these time relevant terms in scripture for decades, simply because I was in the habit of reading only the KJV. It was the only version the Christian schools I attended would permit us to use. It was only when I finally pulled my husband’s Interlinear version off the shelf and began to read it instead that these passages stuck out like a sore thumb. I believe I heard Dee Dee Warren saying the same thing about the time relevant texts in her interviews before, too.


                        For Darfius, oops, you’re right, I did miss your comment earlier. I might have to get back to you tomorrow, since I have a designer picking up drapery tomorrow for install. No rest for the weary!

                        Comment


                        • I'm only referring to your unusual ideas that differ from orthodox preterism. Just the idea that there were two ancient mass resurrections of the same type as Jesus. Plus your goofy idea that God can only bring someone back to life in an immortal body rather than repairing the damage to the mortal body to live a little longer.
                          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                          Comment


                          • It's hardly just an "idea" that the Matthew 27:52-53 group of many saints were raised from the dead along with Christ, Christianbookworm. These Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints were the "First-fruits" (the "aparche"). Just as Christ was also called the "First-fruits" (the "aparche") in I Cor. 15:20. "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the FIRST-FRUITS of them that slept. Christ and those 144,000 FIRST-FRUITS (aparche) in Revelation 14:4 shared the very same title because they shared the very same resurrection event in AD 33. Their resurrected condition was identical, because in the resurrection, we are called "joint-heirs" with Christ. Same resurrection inheritance for the saints as for Him.

                            If you look carefully at the description of those 144,000 First-fruits saints (the many resurrected Matthew 27saints), these were not simply people who had "repaired the damage to the mortal body to live a little longer", as you are proposing. It was far more than that. These 144,000 First-fruits saints were said to be "redeemed from the earth" (Rev. 14:3). This was the hope for "the redemption of the body" out of the ground that Paul spoke of in Romans 8:23. This was the hope that every suffering creature experiencing persecution in those first-century days was waiting to experience after death with that glorious "manifestation of the sons of God" that was "*ABOUT TO BE REVEALED* IN US", as Paul was encouraging them (Romans 8:18). This "manifestation" would SOON take place in the next AD 70 resurrection, when together the two mass resurrection groups would form the "kingdom" which Christ would "deliver up to God, even the Father" in heaven. I can just see Jesus proudly proclaiming before His Father's throne as He delivered up those members of the kingdom to His Father, "Behold, I and the children whom thou hast given me!"

                            The 144,000 First-fruits in Rev. 14:4 were also called "virgins", because there is no marriage or giving in marriage for the "children of the resurrection" (Luke 20:35-36).

                            The 144,000 First-fruits also had "no guile" found in their mouth, and they were "without fault before the throne of God". This described sinless perfection of body, soul, and spirit for them that could only characterize a glorified, incorruptible resurrected body for these saints. These were not mere resuscitation cases.

                            Comment


                            • Revelation is highly symbolic.
                              If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                              Comment


                              • Hi again Darfius,

                                I've got just a short window of time before I have to go dig some footings to do a set of piers, but I'll try to address most of what you presented in your last comment #120.

                                The "double fulfillment" concept you have brought up is one that we have a few examples of in scripture (such as the case with "out of Egypt have I called my son", and "smite the shepherd(s) and the sheep shall be scattered", and "they shall look upon Me whom they pierced", etc.) So I don't deny that this kind of recapitulation pattern has occurred before in prophecy (and might possibly re-occur). However, there are some certain prophetic conditions which cannot possibly be repeated. The crucifixion of Christ for one. The destruction of the Jerusalem temple down to the last stone being another. The launching of the New Covenant in AD 33, and the death of the Old Covenant. AND the eradication of the Satanic / demonic realm for all time.

                                I'm not asking you to just take my word for it on faith, that Satan and his angelic hosts no longer exist since AD 70. If common perceptions today (even so-called "data") presume that Satan is still around in some capacity or another, that is making a presumption which contradicts scripture's fate that was decreed for Satan and his angels' total destruction long ago. And which was a destructive event that was also "AT HAND" for John's first-century audience. I don't present this with any need for feeling "special" somehow. I just want to remain faithful to the time-relevant evidence that scripture gives to us. Wherever that might lead. I have studied several years on this subject alone before I ever started posting with the evidence for Satan's destruction from scripture. Since "there is nothing new under the sun", then others besides me have also noticed these same verses and come to the same conclusions. Just because you have not encountered these others yet, does not mean that they don't exist. If you wish a separate post with scripture proof of Satan's biography and his AD 70 destruction, perhaps that might be a better way to go than to include that in this post's theme where it could get lost in the shuffle .

                                You asked "Was there any outward indication that Satan had been bound when you claim he was?"

                                Answer: Yes, there is OT proof of Satan's binding back in Solomon's days, as found in Psalms 72, particularly in the LXX. This was the very last Psalm by King David, written with its title dedication "For Solomon", with prophecy about his son Solomon's reign. An aging King David wrote of Solomon, "O God, give thy judgment to the king, and thy righteousness to the king's son; that he may judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment. Let the mountains and the hills raise peace to thy people: he shall judge the poor of the people in righteousness, and save the children of the needy; AND SHALL BRING LOW THE FALSE ACCUSER...in his days shall righteousness spring up; and abundance of peace till the moon be removed."

                                This "FALSE ACCUSER" that Solomon would "BRING LOW" was none other than Satan (the "accuser of the brethren" in Rev. 12:10) being chained and restricted during the coming reign of King Solomon, whom God had earlier prophesied before his birth would be called a "Man of rest" (I Chron. 22:9 - Solomon meaning "Peaceable"). This is some of that "double fulfillment language you spoke of, Darfius, that also would ultimately refer to Christ. Solomon's laying down the foundation stone of the temple God planned for him to build was in the year 968/967 BC when the literal thousand years of the Rev. 20 millennium was launched. From Solomon's temple foundation stone being laid and forward, the nations' knowledge about the God of Israel increased exponentially compared to the prior "times of this ignorance", especially under the soon-coming surge of prophetic ministry by the increased number of major and minor prophets. If Psalms 119:130 said that "The entrance of thy words giveth light", then every time a prophet opened his mouth and said "Thus saith the Lord God...", Satan's forces of darkness were beaten back further by God's words being broadcast among the nations. By these means, Satan's deception of the nations (which kept them ignorant of the God of Israel) was chained during the millennium from 968/967 BC until AD 33.

                                Satan finally lost his ability to "accuse the brethren" in heaven's court in AD 33, when Christ had ascended and brought His blood sacrifice to sprinkle on heaven's mercy seat. This "made an end of sins" by providing the once-for-all sacrifice needed for purging the guilt of men's sins. Until that sacrifice had been officially offered in heaven in real time, Satan still had grounds to accuse the brethren of sin-guilt. But not after Christ had first ascended. This new, heavenly reality of Christ's high priesthood ordination at His ascension was the deciding factor which cast Satan and his angels out of heaven's environment (Rev. 12:9) from AD 33 onward. This was totally separate from Satan's ability to deceive men on earth for that "short time" and "little season" after the millennium ended. The elect were not deceived, but the wicked were.

                                When I wrote of "elevating Christ's victory over death" as being the "First-born" of the" First-fruits", I was magnifying the supreme importance of the "FIRST RESURRECTION" in AD 33. I wasn't referring to the second resurrection in AD 70. This "FIRST resurrection" is what dates the ending point of the millennium. It was the time when "the remnant of the dead" came to life again AFTER the millennium was finished - "THIS" event WAS the "First resurrection". Meaning the Rev. 20 millennium MUST have been finished and expired with the advent of Christ's "FIRST resurrection" in AD 33. Satan's release on earth was indeed "future" after that crucifixion event, but not necessarily a release future to US.

                                As to the points you are making about Jonah dying in the belly of the great fish and then being resurrected, only to die again later, Psalms 6:5 contradicts the case you are making. David says, "For in death there is NO REMEMBRANCE OF THEE: in the grave WHO SHALLL GIVE THEE THANKS?" In contrast to this, Jonah says in Jonah 2:7 and 9 that, "When my soul fainted within me, I REMEMBERED THE LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple...But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of THANKSGIVING..." If Psalms 6:5 is true, then how could Jonah "remember the Lord" and give "thanksgiving" if he had already died? Why even would a spirit be complaining about "weeds wrapped around my head", and say that "the billows and thy waves passed over me"? Moreover, after Jonah had witnessed to Ninevah, his angry, vengeful spirit that resented the spirit of repentance in Ninevah is not the righteous reaction of a perfected, glorified and resurrected saint. You may not believe it is so, Darfius, but in the final "perfected" state of soul, spirit, and body, the saints have no sinful impulses or sinful actions ever again. Just like the 144,000 "First-fruits" saints (the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints) had "no guile in their mouth", and were "without fault before the throne of God". If God had to reprove Jonah for his sinful attitude, then he had not experienced the resurrected state yet.

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