Announcement

Collapse

Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

"Appointed unto men ONCE to die" contradicts the rapture's "translation" myth

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

    Your timelines are atrocious. And I'll say this once again, 70 AD was pointless to Biblical prophecy. Once the veil was torn, the Temple building lost its purpose. Destroying and defiling a pointless building by the Romans has no place in Christian eschatology.
    I would disagree. The event was a pivotal point to the early church to get out of dodge and avoid that historical catastrophe. In that sense, as a futurist, I would argue the OD had a duel meaning and purpose. Where the preterists are wrong is to assume all eschatological prophecy for some reason just ends at that point (other than the parousia in some cases) and has no significance to the future church. That's just bonkers.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

    Comment


    • Hi Bill, Thanks for adding another voice to this. Actually, I AGREE that "once the veil was torn, the Temple building lost its purpose", as you have said. That's the very reason Christ predicted that it would be torn down so that not one stone would be left upon another. The Jews had made a virtual idol of that temple structure. They didn't realize that the sole purpose for its construction ever since Solomon laid the first foundation stone in 968/967 BC was to point forward in time to the end of the millennium in AD 33 when the REAL TEMPLE not made with hands would be set up by Christ becoming the "chief cornerstone" of its foundation.

      You remember the brass serpent that Moses had made back in the wilderness? As you know, the Jews ended up making an idol of even that too, and King Hezekiah in his religious reforms for the nation of Judah had that brass serpent he called "Nehushtan" destroyed in II Kings 18:4. Same thing for the necessity of destroying the physical temple in Jerusalem down to the last stone in AD 70. Some people don't get the message until their idol is crushed to dust right in front of them. Sometimes not even then. Ever since Christ's resurrection and the establishment of the New Covenant in AD 33, the Jerusalem temple with its veil torn was at that point a dead physical structure type that had been superseded by the antitype True Temple reality that Christ had set up without hands.

      Comment


      • Hey again Sparko,

        Are you in the habit of digging into the Greek to figure out the meaning behind scripture terms? I try to dabble a bit myself, but am not at all conversant as others are with the original languages. My brother has been a Greek professor for many years and has his doctorate, so I can appreciate those who have this expertise. Apparently, this Rev. 20:4 word "ezesan" (which for those saints can either mean "they LIVED and reigned", or that "they CAME TO LIFE and reigned") has been a matter of some debate between the translations. I came across a very good breakdown of the use of this "ezesan" word on Steve Gregg's website, (theos.org), where I am also a member on that forum. He had a post about Revelation 20:4 where these two options of either "LIVED" or "CAME TO LIFE" were both presented and evaluated. Why is this important? Because, as you are recognizing Sparko, the order of whether they were "living" on earth reigning at some point DURING the millennium, or whether they "came to life" and [THEN] reigned for a thousand years - this is the matter at stake.

        That post by Steve Gregg included a quote by an A.T. Robertson, who wrote this about the "ezesan" word, which is the aorist indicative active of "zao" (to live). Robertson wrote the following:

        "If ingressive aorist, it means 'came to life' or 'lived again' as in (Revelation) 2:8...If it is constantive aorist here and in (Revelation 20) verse 5, then it could mean increased spiritual life."

        Steve Gregg then commented on Robertson's quote, saying, "The second verb 'and reigned,' is ebasileusan which is also the same aorist indicative active (of basileuo), and is, according to Robertson, 'more clearly constantive." (Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol. 5, p.459)."

        Sounds as if Steve Gregg thinks that this "ezesan" term in Revelation 20:4 should be translated to indicate "increased SPIRITUAL life". This would then mean that any saints living regular lives of faith on earth sometime during the millennium were each enjoying increased spiritual freedom from Satan's deception all during that 1,000 years period. Christ's reign in heaven as the second person of the Trinity was then limiting the full expression of Satan's deception on earth by the surge of the many prophets's ministries and their written testimony to the nations ever since the millennium's beginning. Also by the fame of Solomon's kingdom, which brought the knowledge about Israel's God to every nation in the known world at that time, as the Queen of Sheba readily acknowledged. This knowledge did not necessarily result in mass conversions, but it DID make it so the nations could not claim to be ignorantly DECEIVED about Israel's God anymore.

        Comparing the language with its various Greek tenses as above seems a bit tedious, even to me. Which is why I have proposed that very simple comparison between Revelation 12:12 and Revelation 20:3 & 7, which proves that the millennium had ALREADY ENDED by the time John was writing Revelation. John was giving a warning to those first-century saints, telling them that the Devil had ALREADY COME DOWN UNTO THEM for that "SHORT TIME". Since the millennium was supposed to "EXPIRE" just BEFORE Satan's "short time" / "little season",had started, then we can conclude that John was writing at a point in time when the millennium had already expired. This would still be true regardless of whether you assign an early or a late date for the composition of Revelation.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
          Hey again Sparko,

          Are you in the habit of digging into the Greek to figure out the meaning behind scripture terms? I try to dabble a bit myself, but am not at all conversant as others are with the original languages. My brother has been a Greek professor for many years and has his doctorate, so I can appreciate those who have this expertise. Apparently, this Rev. 20:4 word "ezesan" (which for those saints can either mean "they LIVED and reigned", or that "they CAME TO LIFE and reigned") has been a matter of some debate between the translations. I came across a very good breakdown of the use of this "ezesan" word on Steve Gregg's website, (theos.org), where I am also a member on that forum. He had a post about Revelation 20:4 where these two options of either "LIVED" or "CAME TO LIFE" were both presented and evaluated. Why is this important? Because, as you are recognizing Sparko, the order of whether they were "living" on earth reigning at some point DURING the millennium, or whether they "came to life" and [THEN] reigned for a thousand years - this is the matter at stake.

          That post by Steve Gregg included a quote by an A.T. Robertson, who wrote this about the "ezesan" word, which is the aorist indicative active of "zao" (to live). Robertson wrote the following:

          "If ingressive aorist, it means 'came to life' or 'lived again' as in (Revelation) 2:8...If it is constantive aorist here and in (Revelation 20) verse 5, then it could mean increased spiritual life."

          Steve Gregg then commented on Robertson's quote, saying, "The second verb 'and reigned,' is ebasileusan which is also the same aorist indicative active (of basileuo), and is, according to Robertson, 'more clearly constantive." (Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol. 5, p.459)."

          Sounds as if Steve Gregg thinks that this "ezesan" term in Revelation 20:4 should be translated to indicate "increased SPIRITUAL life". This would then mean that any saints living regular lives of faith on earth sometime during the millennium were each enjoying increased spiritual freedom from Satan's deception all during that 1,000 years period. Christ's reign in heaven as the second person of the Trinity was then limiting the full expression of Satan's deception on earth by the surge of the many prophets's ministries and their written testimony to the nations ever since the millennium's beginning. Also by the fame of Solomon's kingdom, which brought the knowledge about Israel's God to every nation in the known world at that time, as the Queen of Sheba readily acknowledged. This knowledge did not necessarily result in mass conversions, but it DID make it so the nations could not claim to be ignorantly DECEIVED about Israel's God anymore.

          Comparing the language with its various Greek tenses as above seems a bit tedious, even to me. Which is why I have proposed that very simple comparison between Revelation 12:12 and Revelation 20:3 & 7, which proves that the millennium had ALREADY ENDED by the time John was writing Revelation. John was giving a warning to those first-century saints, telling them that the Devil had ALREADY COME DOWN UNTO THEM for that "SHORT TIME". Since the millennium was supposed to "EXPIRE" just BEFORE Satan's "short time" / "little season",had started, then we can conclude that John was writing at a point in time when the millennium had already expired. This would still be true regardless of whether you assign an early or a late date for the composition of Revelation.
          3 Res, the lengths you are going to in order to ignore what the passage clearly says just goes to prove what I said earlier about why it is a waste of time to argue scripture with someone who is so invested in their theory that they just twist everything to fit that theory rather than actually reading what is being said. Now you are moving from just reading the passages wrong to trying to pick the verses apart and trying to find alternate definitions of single words in order to ignore the context of the passage.

          The entire passage's context says that the saints/martyrs who died for their testimony about Jesus came to life and reigned with him for 10000 years. Plain and simple. The 1000 years happens after they come to life. No other reading makes any sense. You can read the passage in greek or any translation you want and NONE of them say what you want it to say.

          The word used for "came to life"
          ζάω
          Thayer's #2198
          • to live, breathe, be among the living (not lifeless, not dead)
          • to enjoy real life
            1. to have true life and worthy of the name
            2. active, blessed, endless in the kingdom of God


          The word used for "reign" "βασιλεύω" means:
          Thayer's #936
          to be king, to exercise kingly power, to reign
          1. of the governor of a province
          2. of the rule of the Messiah
          3. of the reign of Christians in the millennium
          And every single English and Greek translation says the same thing. They came to life and reigned (ruled) with Christ for 1000 years. Not they sort of reigned during 1000 years before Christ and then were resurrected, like you keep trying to say.

          Rev 20:4
          Greek:
          WH – και ειδον (5627) θρονους και εκαθισαν (5656) επ αυτους και κριμα εδοθη (5681) αυτοις και τας ψυχας των πεπελεκισμενων (5772) δια την μαρτυριαν ιησου και δια τον λογον του θεου και οιτινες ου προσεκυνησαν (5656) το θηριον ουδε την εικονα αυτου και ουκ ελαβον (5627) το χαραγμα επι το μετωπον και επι την χειρα αυτων και εζησαν (5656) και εβασιλευσαν (5656) μετα του χριστου χιλια ετη


          English:

          KJ21
          And I saw thrones and they that sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them. And I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast, nor his image, nor had received his mark upon their foreheads or on their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


          ASV
          And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


          AMP
          And then I saw thrones, and sitting on them were those to whom judgment [that is, the authority to act as judges] was given. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had refused to worship the beast or his image, and had not accepted his mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


          AMPC
          Then I saw thrones, and sitting on them were those to whom authority to act as judges and to pass sentence was entrusted. Also I saw the souls of those who had been slain with axes [beheaded] for their witnessing to Jesus and [for preaching and testifying] for the Word of God, and who had refused to pay homage to the beast or his statue and had not accepted his mark or permitted it to be stamped on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived again and ruled with Christ (the Messiah) a thousand years.


          BRG
          And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


          CSB
          Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


          CEB
          Then I saw thrones, and people took their seats on them, and judgment was given in their favor. They were the ones who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and God’s word, and those who hadn’t worshipped the beast or its image, who hadn’t received the mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and ruled with Christ for one thousand years.


          CJB
          Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them received authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for testifying about Yeshua and proclaiming the Word of God, also those who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands. They came to life and ruled with the Messiah for a thousand years.


          CEV
          I saw thrones, and sitting on those thrones were the ones who had been given the right to judge. I also saw the souls of the people who had their heads cut off because they had told about Jesus and preached God’s message. They were the same ones who had not worshiped the beast or the idol, and they had refused to let its mark be put on their hands or foreheads. They will come to life and rule with Christ for a thousand years.


          DARBY
          And I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them; and the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God; and those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ a thousand years:


          DLNT
          And I saw thrones— and they sat-down on them, and judgment was given to them— and the souls of the ones having been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and they who did not worship the beast nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon the forehead and upon their hand. And they came-to-life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


          DRA
          And I saw seats; and they sat upon them; and judgment was given unto them; and the souls of them that were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not adored the beast nor his image, nor received his character on their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


          ERV
          Then I saw some thrones and people sitting on them. These were the ones who had been given the power to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been killed because they were faithful to the truth of Jesus and the message from God. They did not worship the beast or its idol. They did not receive the mark of the beast on their foreheads or on their hands. They came back to life and ruled with Christ for 1000 years.


          EHV
          Then I saw thrones, and those who were sitting on them were given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshipped the beast and his image, and they did not receive his mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


          ESV
          Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


          ESVUK
          Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


          EXB
          Then I saw some thrones and people sitting on them who had been given the power to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been ·killed [L beheaded] because ·they were faithful to the message [of their testimony/witness] of Jesus and [L because of] the ·message from [word of] God. They had not worshiped the beast or his ·idol [image], and they had not received the ·mark [brand; stamp] of the beast on their foreheads or on their hands. They came back to life and ·ruled [reigned] with Christ for a thousand years.


          GNV
          And I saw seats: and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them, and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which did not worship the beast, neither his image, neither had taken his mark upon their foreheads or on their hands: and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


          GW
          I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were allowed to judge. Then I saw the souls of those whose heads had been cut off because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God’s word. They had not worshiped the beast or its statue and were not branded on their foreheads or hands. They lived and ruled with Christ for 1,000 years.


          GNT
          Then I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given the power to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been executed because they had proclaimed the truth that Jesus revealed and the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image, nor had they received the mark of the beast on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and ruled as kings with Christ for a thousand years.


          HCSB
          Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. I also saw the people who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God’s word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.


          ICB
          Then I saw some thrones and people sitting on them. They had been given the power to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been killed because they were faithful to the truth of Jesus and the message from God. They had not worshiped the beast or his idol. They had not received the mark of the beast on their foreheads or on their hands. They came back to life and ruled with Christ for 1,000 years.


          ISV
          Then I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. They came back to life and ruled with the Messiah for a thousand years.


          PHILLIPS
          And I saw thrones, with appointed judges seated upon them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been executed for their witness to Jesus and for proclaiming the Word of God—those who never worshipped the animal or its statue, and had not accepted its mark upon their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.) This is the first resurrection. Happy and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death cannot touch such men; they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him for the thousand years.


          JUB
          And I saw thrones, and those who sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them; and I saw the souls of those that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God and who had not worshipped the beast neither its image neither had received its mark upon their foreheads or in their hands; and they shall live and reign with Christ the thousand years.


          KJV
          And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.



          AKJV
          And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


          LEB
          And I saw thrones, and they sat down on them, and authority to judge was granted to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and did not receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand, and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


          TLB
          Then I saw thrones, and sitting on them were those who had been given the right to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus, for proclaiming the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the Creature or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They had come to life again and now they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


          MSG
          I saw thrones. Those put in charge of judgment sat on the thrones. I also saw the souls of those beheaded because of their witness to Jesus and the Word of God, who refused to worship either the Beast or his image, refused to take his mark on forehead or hand—they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years! The rest of the dead did not live until the thousand years were up. This is the first resurrection—and those involved most blessed, most holy. No second death for them! They’re priests of God and Christ; they’ll reign with him a thousand years.


          MEV
          I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and the authority to judge was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness of Jesus and for the word of God. They had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


          MOUNCE
          And I saw thrones, and seated on them · were those who had been given the authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God. · These had not worshiped the beast or · its image and had not received its mark on · their foreheads or · their hands. · They came to life and reigned with · Christ for a thousand years.


          NOG
          I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were allowed to judge. Then I saw the souls of those whose heads had been cut off because of their testimony about Yeshua and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its statue and were not branded on their foreheads or hands. They lived and ruled with Christ for 1,000 years.


          NABRE
          Then I saw thrones; those who sat on them were entrusted with judgment. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image nor had accepted its mark on their foreheads or hands. They came to life and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


          NASB
          Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


          NASB1995
          Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


          NCV
          Then I saw some thrones and people sitting on them who had been given the power to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been killed because they were faithful to the message of Jesus and the message from God. They had not worshiped the beast or his idol, and they had not received the mark of the beast on their foreheads or on their hands. They came back to life and ruled with Christ for a thousand years.


          NET
          Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


          NIRV
          I saw thrones. Those who had been given authority to judge were sitting on them. I also saw the souls of those whose heads had been cut off. They had been killed because they had spoken what was true about Jesus. They had also been killed because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its statue. They had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. They came to life and ruled with Christ for 1,000 years.


          NIV
          I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


          NIVUK
          I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


          NKJV
          And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


          NLV
          Then I saw thrones. Those who were sitting there were given the power to judge. I saw the souls of those who had been killed because they told about Jesus and preached the Word of God. They had not worshiped the wild animal or his false god. They had not received his mark on their foreheads or hands. They lived again and were leaders along with Christ for 1,000 years.


          NLT
          Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


          NMB
          And I saw seats, and they that sat upon them; and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshipped the beast, nor his image, neither had taken his mark upon their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


          NRSV
          Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


          NRSVA
          Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God. They had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


          NRSVACE
          Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God. They had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


          NRSVCE
          Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


          NTE
          Then I saw thrones, with people sitting on them, who were given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had had their heads cut off because they had borne witness to Jesus, and because of the word of God; and also those who had not worshipped the monster or its image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with the Messiah for a thousand years.


          OJB
          And I saw kise’ot (thrones) and they sat on them and authority for mishpat (judgment) was given to them, and I saw the nefashot (souls) of the ones having been beheaded because of their edut (testimony) for Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach and because of the dvar Hashem and for those who did not worship the Chayyah [Beast, Anti-Moshiach] nor its Atzav and did not receive the tav (mark) on the metsakh (forehead) and on their yad (hand), and they awakened to Chayyim (Life) and reigned with Moshiach for elef shanim (a thousand years). [DANIEL 7:9]


          TPT
          Then I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given the authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and for the Word of God. They had refused to worship the wild beast or its image and did not have their foreheads or hands marked by the wild beast. They lived and reigned with the Christ for one thousand years.


          RGT
          And I saw thrones. And they sat upon them. And judgment was given them. And I saw the souls of those who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who did not worship the beast or his image. Nor had they taken his mark upon their foreheads, nor on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


          RSV
          Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


          RSVCE
          Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


          TLV
          Then I saw thrones, and people sat upon them—those to whom authority to judge was given. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Yeshua and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image, nor had they received his mark on their forehead or on their hand. And they came to life and reigned with the Messiah for a thousand years.


          VOICE
          Then I saw some thrones, and those seated in judgment were given the right to judge. Standing there were the souls of those who were beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and the word of God. They had refused to worship the beast or its detestable image and had not received the mark upon their foreheads or upon their hands. They had come back to life and reigned with the Anointed One, our Liberating King, for 1,000 years.


          WEB
          I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as didn’t worship the beast nor his image, and didn’t receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


          WE
          Then I saw thrones. Those who sat on them were given the right to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had their heads cut off because they told about Jesus and God's word. They had not worshipped the beast or its idol. And they had not taken its mark on their foreheads or on their hands. They became alive again and ruled with Christ for a thousand years.


          WYC
          And I saw seats, and they sat on them, and doom was given to them. And the souls of men beheaded for the witnessing of Jesus, and for the word of God, and them that worshipped not the beast, neither the image of it, neither took the character of it in their foreheads, neither in their hands [or in their hands]. And they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


          YLT
          And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;

          -------------------
          Now I think I am done arguing with you with scripture, since you will not listen and go back to beseeching you to drop your pride and read what the bible actually says and stop thinking you have some special insight that nobody else does.
          Last edited by Sparko; 04-02-2021, 01:33 PM.

          Comment


          • For seanD,

            You have also made a point with which I agree...that Preterists are in error when they say that ALL prophetic material - bar none - was fulfilled in the AD 70 era carnage, with absolutely nothing left for history following that time. Those "days of vengeance" in the AD 66-70 era were a time when "all things WRITTEN" about those days of vengeance were going to be fulfilled.

            But not ALL prophecy was actually WRITTEN down. The exception to that "all things WRITTEN" being fulfilled in the "days of vengeance" was the UNWRITTEN content of what the 7 thunders uttered in Revelation 10:4, and that John was told NOT TO WRITE DOWN. These 7 thunders' spoken prophecies John was told to "SEAL UP" at that time. This means the content of their message was going to be reserved for a time AFTER AD 70 had come and gone.

            Most Preterists recognize that Daniel's SEALED UP prophecies were to be reserved for a later time down the road from Daniel's days. Revelation then pictures the "at hand" UNSEALING in their generation of Daniel's formerly SEALED prophecies. But even in the middle of all that revealing and unsealing of Revelation's prophecies for fulfillment in that generation, we have MORE prophetic material in Revelation 10:4 being SEALED UP and reserved for fulfillment during LATER generations. We don't need to feel left out of the prophetic picture simply because God fulfilled all His promises related to that first-century generation's time.

            Comment


            • I'm keeping it REALLY simple, Sparko, by continuing to bring up Revelation 12:12 compared with Revelation 20:3 & 7. I don't want to appear to nag, but this is really, really clear that the Rev. 20 millennium was EXPIRED by the time John was writing Revelation.

              The millennium was never intended to provide Utopia-type conditions on earth.
              Last edited by 3 Resurrections; 04-02-2021, 01:47 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
                I'm keeping it REALLY simple, Sparko, by continuing to bring up Revelation 12:12 compared with Revelation 20:3 & 7. I don't want to appear to nag, but this is really, really clear that the Rev. 20 millennium was EXPIRED by the time John was writing Revelation.
                You continue to ignore plain verses in context in order to shoehorn in other verses out of context. You are also ignoring the fact that this book is a REVELATION to John, about what was to COME. It is prophesy, so trying to claim what it is talking about happened John's past is to ignore the entire context of the book of Revelation. It can't be talking about what IS to happen to the saints but mean it already happened over 1000 years ago from when it was revealed to John. Also Revelation was written AFTER 70AD. Around 95AD. so again, it is about what is to come, and John wrote it as prophesy, so claiming it all happened in the past is just silly.

                Rev 1:1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

                Rev 4:After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

                Comment


                • Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
                  For seanD,

                  You have also made a point with which I agree...that Preterists are in error when they say that ALL prophetic material - bar none - was fulfilled in the AD 70 era carnage, with absolutely nothing left for history following that time. Those "days of vengeance" in the AD 66-70 era were a time when "all things WRITTEN" about those days of vengeance were going to be fulfilled.

                  But not ALL prophecy was actually WRITTEN down. The exception to that "all things WRITTEN" being fulfilled in the "days of vengeance" was the UNWRITTEN content of what the 7 thunders uttered in Revelation 10:4, and that John was told NOT TO WRITE DOWN. These 7 thunders' spoken prophecies John was told to "SEAL UP" at that time. This means the content of their message was going to be reserved for a time AFTER AD 70 had come and gone.

                  Most Preterists recognize that Daniel's SEALED UP prophecies were to be reserved for a later time down the road from Daniel's days. Revelation then pictures the "at hand" UNSEALING in their generation of Daniel's formerly SEALED prophecies. But even in the middle of all that revealing and unsealing of Revelation's prophecies for fulfillment in that generation, we have MORE prophetic material in Revelation 10:4 being SEALED UP and reserved for fulfillment during LATER generations. We don't need to feel left out of the prophetic picture simply because God fulfilled all His promises related to that first-century generation's time.
                  I'll probably regret asking this, but what "later generation" do you suppose will see the unsealing (fulfillment?) of that revelation and how will that generation know it's been unsealed?
                  "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                  Comment


                  • Well, seanD, we do have Amos 3:7 that says "Surely the Lord God will do nothing , but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." All those "secrets" are encapsulated in the Word of God sent to the prophets that we hold in our hands. When God is ready to "DO" something, or when He has actually DONE something in fulfillment of prophecy, he will reveal it to us out of His book. Didn't He tell the disciples in John 14:29 that He had told them things BEFOREHAND so that when they saw these things actually come to pass, that they would then believe? In other words, perhaps the main goal of prophecy is not so much to prognosticate about the future, but to have our faith confirmed when we see God having fulfilled what He already promised to do. THAT is why Preterism gives me such joy.

                    As for ourselves in these succeeding generations since AD 70, we believers should expect to experience ordinary, ongoing periods of tribulation. That's because Christ said that the "Great Tribulation" would have none such type of tribulation like it either before OR AFTERWARD in the periods of history that followed it - "No, nor ever SHALL BE." And these regular periods of ordinary tribulation that believers experience now are occurring AFTER Christ "IMMEDIATELY" returned following the events of that first-century "Great Tribulation". Those events were ALL "ABOUT TO come to pass" in those days, according to Luke 21:36. We are living in the aftermath of the Great Tribulation immediately followed by Christ's second coming.

                    Personally, I think what those seven thunders uttered in Rev. 10:4 started being fulfilled immediately after AD 70 came to a close, and are still continuing today. Because I believe all of fallen man's history is going to be composed of 7 millennial ages total, (symbolically indicated by the 7 thunders). We are almost to the close of the 6th millennial age now (which is a familiar point of view among some of the church fathers). I believe that at the close of the soon-approaching 7th millennium period, Christ will come again for a third time. However, this time I believe He intends to stay with His resurrected saints on a planet purified of all human evil (having already disposed of the demonic realm back in AD 70).

                    Comment


                    • 3 Resurrections, Satan is bound "in the Abyss" for the 1,000 years, yet you are claiming he is "cast out of heaven" at the end for "a short time". Do you see how that is a direct, irreconcilable contradiction? The Abyss is not in heaven.

                      And your claim that the Millenium is not a time of "utopia-like conditions on earth" is also directly contradicted all throughout Scripture, most famously:

                      Scripture Verse: Isaiah 65


                      “See, I will create
                      new heavens and a new earth.
                      The former things will not be remembered,
                      nor will they come to mind.
                      18 But be glad and rejoice forever
                      in what I will create,
                      for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
                      and its people a joy.
                      19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
                      and take delight in my people;
                      the sound of weeping and of crying
                      will be heard in it no more.


                      20 “Never again will there be in it
                      an infant who lives but a few days,
                      or an old man who does not live out his years;
                      the one who dies at a hundred
                      will be thought a mere child;
                      the one who fails to reach a hundred
                      will be considered accursed.
                      21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
                      they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
                      22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
                      or plant and others eat.
                      For as the days of a tree,
                      so will be the days of my people;
                      my chosen ones will long enjoy
                      the work of their hands.
                      23 They will not labor in vain,
                      nor will they bear children doomed to misfortune;
                      for they will be a people blessed by the Lord,
                      they and their descendants with them.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      Before you attempt to claim this is at the end of everything, it specifically states that lifespans will be lengthened while death is still possible.

                      Scripture Verse: Ezekiel 47

                      The man brought me back to the entrance to the temple, and I saw water coming out from under the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east). The water was coming down from under the south side of the temple, south of the altar. 2 He then brought me out through the north gate and led me around the outside to the outer gate facing east, and the water was trickling from the south side.

                      3 As the man went eastward with a measuring line in his hand, he measured off a thousand cubits[a] and then led me through water that was ankle-deep. 4 He measured off another thousand cubits and led me through water that was knee-deep. He measured off another thousand and led me through water that was up to the waist. 5 He measured off another thousand, but now it was a river that I could not cross, because the water had risen and was deep enough to swim in—a river that no one could cross. 6 He asked me, “Son of man, do you see this?”

                      Then he led me back to the bank of the river. 7 When I arrived there, I saw a great number of trees on each side of the river. 8 He said to me, “This water flows toward the eastern region and goes down into the Arabah,[b] where it enters the Dead Sea. When it empties into the sea, the salty water there becomes fresh. 9 Swarms of living creatures will live wherever the river flows. There will be large numbers of fish, because this water flows there and makes the salt water fresh; so where the river flows everything will live. 10 Fishermen will stand along the shore; from En Gedi to En Eglaim there will be places for spreading nets. The fish will be of many kinds—like the fish of the Mediterranean Sea. 11 But the swamps and marshes will not become fresh; they will be left for salt. 12 Fruit trees of all kinds will grow on both banks of the river. Their leaves will not wither, nor will their fruit fail. Every month they will bear fruit, because the water from the sanctuary flows to them. Their fruit will serve for food and their leaves for healing.”

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      In fact, an Edenic river flows from beneath the temple and restores life to wherever it flows, except for specified locations. There is still death present so this is not at the end of all things and there is still a sea, which is another disqualification for the end of all things:

                      Scripture Verse: Revelation 21

                      21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      The Millenium is a transitional period between a fallen world and the merging of heaven and earth. A restored Eden that man was always meant to enjoy and a time to also prove that even those born into paradise-like conditions can still succumb to sin and "be deceived by Satan." Jesus said the meek would inherit the earth. In your failed, absurd theory, they only ever inherit heaven, but of course not even that truly since you do not believe in real sanctification, only an enforced "holiness" via being trapped in a "glorified body".

                      You also have not addressed the fact that Jonah died, resurrected and later died, disproving your theory. I have disproved your theory many times over by now, but that is a rather glaring example.

                      You spoke earlier of "letting everything go" to seek after the Lord. If that was true and not just fancy "holy" speak, let this destructive nonsense go. You have rightly discerned that the destruction of Jerusalem had prophetic implications as sean and I (staunch futurists) have admitted, but you are clinging to the deluded fancy that that was "the worst time period ever known" (it wasn't even that for the Jews: Holocaust) and the fulfillment of all endtime prophecy when that is impossible for a host of reasons. Jerusalem was always going to be judged by God, but only as a step along His path of redemption:

                      Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 25

                      15 This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, said to me: “Take from my hand this cup filled with the wine of my wrath and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it. 16 When they drink it, they will stagger and go mad because of the sword I will send among them.”

                      17 So I took the cup from the Lord’s hand and made all the nations to whom he sent me drink it: 18 Jerusalem and the towns of Judah, its kings and officials, to make them a ruin and an object of horror and scorn, a curse—as they are today; 19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, his attendants, his officials and all his people, 20 and all the foreign people there; all the kings of Uz; all the kings of the Philistines (those of Ashkelon, Gaza, Ekron, and the people left at Ashdod); 21 Edom, Moab and Ammon; 22 all the kings of Tyre and Sidon; the kings of the coastlands across the sea; 23 Dedan, Tema, Buz and all who are in distant places; 24 all the kings of Arabia and all the kings of the foreign people who live in the wilderness; 25 all the kings of Zimri, Elam and Media; 26 and all the kings of the north, near and far, one after the other—all the kingdoms on the face of the earth. And after all of them, the king of Sheshak [an anagram of Babel] will drink it too.

                      27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’ 28 But if they refuse to take the cup from your hand and drink, tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty says: You must drink it! 29 See, I am beginning to bring disaster on the city that bears my Name, and will you indeed go unpunished? You will not go unpunished, for I am calling down a sword on all who live on the earth, declares the Lord Almighty.’

                      30 “Now prophesy all these words against them and say to them:

                      “‘The Lord will roar from on high;
                      he will thunder from his holy dwelling
                      and roar mightily against his land.
                      He will shout like those who tread the grapes,
                      shout against all who live on the earth.
                      31 The tumult will resound to the ends of the earth,
                      for the Lord will bring charges against the nations;
                      he will bring judgment on all mankind
                      and put the wicked to the sword,’”
                      declares the Lord.



                      32 This is what the Lord Almighty says:

                      “Look! Disaster is spreading
                      from nation to nation;
                      a mighty storm is rising
                      from the ends of the earth.”



                      33 At that time those slain by the Lord will be everywherefrom one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned or gathered up or buried, but will be like dung lying on the ground.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      Not sure if God's language could have been more comprehensive to indicate a global judgment--preceded by a judgment of Jerusalem. And it is the exact same language as used in Revelation so the "time period" could never be misunderstood:

                      Scripture Verse: Revelation 16

                      19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      Scripture Verse: Luke 21

                      24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

                      © Copyright Original Source


                      Comment


                      • Sparko, John didn't just experience prophetic visions of what was FUTURE for him. In Revelation 1:19, Christ told John, "Write the things which thou hast seen" (PAST events), "and the things which are" (PRESENTLY occurring in John's days), "and the things which are ABOUT TO TAKE PLACE after these." (in John's NEAR FUTURE). This allows for John to have seen things which had occurred in the past, such as the martyrdom of of Antipas, the "Woman" giving birth to Jesus the man-child, who was then caught up in His ascension to the Father's throne. Likewise a PAST millennium which had expired in John's recent experience, as Revelation 12:12 shows us when compared to Rev. 20:3 & 7.

                        There is too much internal evidence in Revelation and the rest of scripture that pins down the composition date of Revelation to somewhere between late AD 59 and early AD 60. This was just before the cataclysmic AD 60 Laodicean earthquake when God was "ABOUT TO spue thee out of my mouth". I've enumerated all this internal evidence at the following link below, if it's permissible to include that here. If not, then if you need to edit that out, I can mention each of those points individually as I have time. Perhaps on another post devoted to that theme.

                        http://www.gracecentered.com/christi...ation-written/ Starting at comment # 14.

                        Comment


                        • Hi Darfius,

                          The "Abyss" (abusson) is not a PLACE per se. It's a CONDITION - specifically a NON-FUNCTIONING condition, such as Christ experienced when His body was in the "abyss" in a non-functioning state of death (Romans 10:7). To have Satan bound with a 1,000-year chain was to put him in a CONDITION of not being able to deceive the nations as he had done before that time. The SEAL over the "abyss" symbolized that this chained condition was firmly established, and would not change for the duration of Satan's 1,000-year limitation to deceive.

                          And the New Heavens and New Earth is NOT the same as the millennium. Because the Apostle Peter writing just before his martyrdom in AD 67 said that they were looking forward to that NHNE promise yet to come (II Peter 3:13). The NHNE can't be the same as the millennium, because John writing in AD 59-60 said the millennium was ALREADY OVER and done (Rev. 12:12 compared with Rev. 20:3 & 7).

                          The NHNE in John's AD 59-60 writing of Revelation was almost there in time as a fulfilled reality, because those written and revealed prophecies of the future were all "AT HAND" for those reading John's writing. (That means a "presently near" fulfilment for THEM.) WE are currently IN the NHNE since then. The NHNE is not to be confused with our final, eternal state. Because, according to Isaiah 65:17-25's detailed description of the NHNE, as you have highlighted, Darfius, there will still be DEATH, as well as childbirth, planting crops, building homes, praying, and the presence of sinners still around. Kind of sounds like what's going on now. In contrast, in the resurrected state, there will be no marriage or giving in marriage, and certainly no birth of offspring needed either, because there will be no more physical death of our glorified bodies in need of children to replace us. So Isaiah's NHNE could not have been talking about the final eternal state for us after death.

                          We are somewhat in sync that the Rev. 20 millennium was to be a sort of transitional period. It proved that humanity (even without Satan's free-ranging deception of the nations) could still manage to deceive themselves with the deception that lurks in the heart of man before God eradicates those tendencies completely in the bodily resurrection.

                          But I deny that earth will be exterminated. God said of the earth that "He created it not in vain; He formed it TO BE INHABITED." In the eternal state for us after our physical resurrection, I believe the earth in its final state purified of all human evil will be ours to inhabit and have dominion over, as before in Eden, but this time with Christ bodily among us.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
                            Hi Darfius,

                            The "Abyss" (abusson) is not a PLACE per se. It's a CONDITION - specifically a NON-FUNCTIONING condition
                            Provide evidence for this claim. I have already proved that death never means "non-functioning" in Scripture.

                            , such as Christ experienced when His body was in the "abyss" in a non-functioning state of death (Romans 10:7).
                            Scripture Verse: 1 Peter

                            18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            Christ preached to the spirits in the abode of the dead while he was dead. He wasn't--AND COULDN'T BE because death never had any hold of Him--in a "condition of non-functioning."

                            Scripture Verse: Acts 2

                            24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            In no way could a state of non-functioning be described as "agony".

                            To have Satan bound with a 1,000-year chain was to put him in a CONDITION of not being able to deceive the nations as he had done before that time. The SEAL over the "abyss" symbolized that this chained condition was firmly established, and would not change for the duration of Satan's 1,000-year limitation to deceive.
                            A non-functioning entity does not require chains. You redefine words and concepts at your leisure and it is fundamentally dishonest.

                            And the New Heavens and New Earth is NOT the same as the millennium. Because the Apostle Peter writing just before his martyrdom in AD 67 said that they were looking forward to that NHNE promise yet to come (II Peter 3:13). The NHNE can't be the same as the millennium, because John writing in AD 59-60 said the millennium was ALREADY OVER and done (Rev. 12:12 compared with Rev. 20:3 & 7).
                            This is pure circular reasoning. And has been pointed out to you several times by now, Rev 12:12 and Rev 20 cannot be the same time periods.

                            The NHNE in John's AD 59-60 writing of Revelation was almost there in time as a fulfilled reality, because those written and revealed prophecies of the future were all "AT HAND" for those reading John's writing. (That means a "presently near" fulfilment for THEM.) WE are currently IN the NHNE since then. The NHNE is not to be confused with our final, eternal state. Because, according to Isaiah 65:17-25's detailed description of the NHNE, as you have highlighted, Darfius, there will still be DEATH, as well as childbirth, planting crops, building homes, praying, and the presence of sinners still around. Kind of sounds like what's going on now. In contrast, in the resurrected state, there will be no marriage or giving in marriage, and certainly no birth of offspring needed either, because there will be no more physical death of our glorified bodies in need of children to replace us. So Isaiah's NHNE could not have been talking about the final eternal state for us after death.
                            Even if the generation of John saw A fulfillment, you have not at all addressed the possibility of a double fulfillment. "At hand" for God is much different than for us.

                            It is an insult to God to claim that we are currently in His new heavens and new earth. A blasphemous insult. Idyllic conditions are a reality in the "NHNE" and we are clearly not in idyllic conditions where someone is accounted cursed for dying at the early age of 100.

                            AND YOU STILL HAVE NOT ADDRESSED THE FACT THAT JONAH DIED, RESURRECTED AND DIED AGAIN, DISPROVING YOUR THEORY.

                            I am not yelling, I am making sure you and everyone else viewing this thread saw that and sees your shameful dodging.

                            Comment


                            • That's alright, Darfius, I'm sure you're not yelling. And I hope you realize that I have not reached retirement age yet, and am supposed to be working on the next custom drapery work order today, as well as laying out a sill plate on the foundation piers for my new workroom addition project. So although I really prefer posting with you guys, I'm not totally free with my time to address every point you might make.

                              You and I will simply have to disagree that dead bodies can make prayers to God. Which Jonah was definitely doing while in the belly of the great fish after three days and nights had gone by. You believe dead bodies can pray. I don't. Rather, I see OT scripture saying things like "in the grave there is no remembrance of thee..." and "in that very day his thoughts perish..." and "...shall the dead praise thee?" - things like that. Somehow I don't think there would be many backing you on this question of Jonah praying while dead in the belly of the great fish. Could be wrong about those posting here, but maybe not. It was supposed to be a miraculous preservation of Jonah's life for those 3 days and nights that would feature prominently in Christ's sign prediction about just how long He would stay in the sepulchre.

                              If you don't believe that the "short time" of Satan's release in Rev. 12:12 is the same as the "little season" he was loosed in Rev. 20: verse 3 and 7 AFTER the millennium ended, then once again, you and I will simply have to disagree. I believe the one interprets the other. You don't. Maybe the next person reading this can catch the connection. Maybe not. That's okay with me. But I believe that Christ's "First resurrection" is undoubtedly the event spoken of in Revelation 20:5 when that relatively small "remnant" fraction of the dead rose along with Christ in that "First resurrection". This gives Christ and that "FIRST resurrection" the center stage focus in all of human history, from beginning to end. If you consider that an evil error, then again, we will have to agree to disagree. I'm simply trying to elevate my Christ's sacrifice and victory over the dead as the "First-born" of the "First-fruits" resurrection.

                              You have said that "idyllic conditions" would exist in the NHNE. Well, if the demonic realm is destroyed and is no longer on this earth since AD 70, (as I believe scripture gives us proof), I would think that qualifies as conditions for a "New Earth" now, wouldn't you? As for the "New Heavens", it now has a rejoicing throng of resurrected saints from Abel up to AD 70's last saint that died before Christ returned to the Mount of Olives that year. This condition in heaven had never existed until then either - a totally new state of affairs in glory.

                              As for the definition of the "abyss" being a non-functioning status for something...that was Christ's BODY that was not functioning as it had while He was living. His SPIRIT, as you have said Darfius, was elsewhere preaching to the "spirits in prison." The bonds of death held His PHYSICAL BODY temporarily in a non-functioning state, but He was loosed from those bonds to live again at the end of the 3 days and nights. Same as Satan was loosed from his bonds that had kept him from operating as he had done in previous millennia before then. The "chain" binding Satan was symbolic of the restriction he was put under for that time. By that we understand that he had not lost existence yet - just the free-ranging ability to deceive for that 1,000 years. Like a wild dog on a chain is not a threat if you stay out of range, but a terror to flee from once he is released.

                              You also said that "AT HAND" means something different for God than it does for us. Wrong. Ezekiel 12:21-28 is a long passage that gives us GOD'S definition of what He considers an "AT HAND" prophecy to mean. I won't copy it all, but it flatly denies that "at hand" can be an event that is "prolonged" into "times that are far off". It says that in the same time frame that an "at hand" prophecy is spoken, that it will be "performed" and fulfilled "IN *YOUR* DAYS" for the ones hearing that prophecy for the first time. That does not allow for a 2,000 years and more delay before the fulfillment of that "at hand" prophecy is completed.

                              Okay, sorry Darfius, I've got to duck out of here and go work on some Roman shades to meet a deadline...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
                                That's alright, Darfius, I'm sure you're not yelling. And I hope you realize that I have not reached retirement age yet, and am supposed to be working on the next custom drapery work order today, as well as laying out a sill plate on the foundation piers for my new workroom addition project. So although I really prefer posting with you guys, I'm not totally free with my time to address every point you might make.
                                Good day, 3 Resurrections. I've always been envious of those who are creative and artistic. I'm more of an organizer myself.

                                You and I will simply have to disagree that dead bodies can make prayers to God. Which Jonah was definitely doing while in the belly of the great fish after three days and nights had gone by. You believe dead bodies can pray. I don't. Rather, I see OT scripture saying things like "in the grave there is no remembrance of thee..." and "in that very day his thoughts perish..." and "...shall the dead praise thee?" - things like that. Somehow I don't think there would be many backing you on this question of Jonah praying while dead in the belly of the great fish. Could be wrong about those posting here, but maybe not. It was supposed to be a miraculous preservation of Jonah's life for those 3 days and nights that would feature prominently in Christ's sign prediction about just how long He would stay in the sepulchre.
                                You go on to admit the distinction between the body and the spirit with the Lord Jesus, but you do not admit this for Jonah, despite the fact that I have already pointed out Samuel's continued existence after death. This is yet another contradiction on your part. Jonah's spirit prayed to God from the abode of the dead while his body languished in the whale.

                                And in fact, Jesus' comparison to Jonah only makes sense if Jonah did die, because the Lord Jesus certainly did. Jesus dying and rising like Jonah would be the only "sign" granted to that generation. Jesus' life was not "miraculously preserved", nor was Jonah's. But unlike Jonah who had to pray to God for resurrection, Jesus had the power to lay His own life down and take it up again.

                                If you don't believe that the "short time" of Satan's release in Rev. 12:12 is the same as the "little season" he was loosed in Rev. 20: verse 3 and 7 AFTER the millennium ended, then once again, you and I will simply have to disagree. I believe the one interprets the other. You don't. Maybe the next person reading this can catch the connection. Maybe not. That's okay with me. But I believe that Christ's "First resurrection" is undoubtedly the event spoken of in Revelation 20:5 when that relatively small "remnant" fraction of the dead rose along with Christ in that "First resurrection". This gives Christ and that "FIRST resurrection" the center stage focus in all of human history, from beginning to end. If you consider that an evil error, then again, we will have to agree to disagree. I'm simply trying to elevate my Christ's sacrifice and victory over the dead as the "First-born" of the "First-fruits" resurrection.
                                Rev 12 and Rev 20 have contexts that you are ripping these only apparently similar phrases from. In Rev 12, the birth of a "male child" which has internal word links to the "overcomers" mentioned by Christ in some way contributes to Satan losing his ability to accuse believers. But according to you, this is precisely the period when he begins to deceive again. It's nonsensical. And again, there is no mention of deception in this narrative. Only open rage and warfare against the saints.

                                And in Rev 20, John says that "after" the 1,000 years are ended, Satan "shall be" loosed. And the word for loosed is in the future indicative form in the Greek, so there is no doubt John meant a date future to when he was writing. This directly contradicts your claim that he is describing something which happened decades earlier at the crucifixion. Another irreconcilable contradiction that you will presumably ignore to defend your unfalsifiable theory.

                                How does a localized resurrection event that we have no evidence happened or that anyone witnessed "elevate Christ's victory"? Scripture says that when He returned every eye would see Him--from the east to the west. THAT elevates His victory, and wouldn't you know it, that's what will actually happen, thank God.

                                You have said that "idyllic conditions" would exist in the NHNE. Well, if the demonic realm is destroyed and is no longer on this earth since AD 70, (as I believe scripture gives us proof), I would think that qualifies as conditions for a "New Earth" now, wouldn't you? As for the "New Heavens", it now has a rejoicing throng of resurrected saints from Abel up to AD 70's last saint that died before Christ returned to the Mount of Olives that year. This condition in heaven had never existed until then either - a totally new state of affairs in glory.
                                How do we know the demonic realm has been destroyed unless we take on faith your theory which so far has a following of one in roughly 7 billion? Not that its unpopularity makes it wrong--all the absurdities and contradictions do that--but I do wonder why the fact that you cannot convince anyone else or that no one else has come to the same conclusions doesn't give you pause. Is Sparko right about you? Do you prize feeling "special" over being in the truth? That's gunna land a lot of people in the lake of fire. Also there is a lot of demonic activity that clearly still occurs. Your theory is not only unfalsifiable, it ignores the data we do possess.

                                As for the definition of the "abyss" being a non-functioning status for something...that was Christ's BODY that was not functioning as it had while He was living. His SPIRIT, as you have said Darfius, was elsewhere preaching to the "spirits in prison." The bonds of death held His PHYSICAL BODY temporarily in a non-functioning state, but He was loosed from those bonds to live again at the end of the 3 days and nights. Same as Satan was loosed from his bonds that had kept him from operating as he had done in previous millennia before then. The "chain" binding Satan was symbolic of the restriction he was put under for that time. By that we understand that he had not lost existence yet - just the free-ranging ability to deceive for that 1,000 years. Like a wild dog on a chain is not a threat if you stay out of range, but a terror to flee from once he is released.
                                Was there any outward indication that Satan had been bound when you claim he was? Or are you merely reasoning backwards from "my theory must be correct, therefore Satan must have been bound then"?

                                You also said that "AT HAND" means something different for God than it does for us. Wrong. Ezekiel 12:21-28 is a long passage that gives us GOD'S definition of what He considers an "AT HAND" prophecy to mean. I won't copy it all, but it flatly denies that "at hand" can be an event that is "prolonged" into "times that are far off". It says that in the same time frame that an "at hand" prophecy is spoken, that it will be "performed" and fulfilled "IN *YOUR* DAYS" for the ones hearing that prophecy for the first time. That does not allow for a 2,000 years and more delay before the fulfillment of that "at hand" prophecy is completed.
                                Double fulfillment, another argument you have failed to address.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by eschaton, 03-11-2021, 10:51 AM
                                22 responses
                                211 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Faber
                                by Faber
                                 
                                Started by Darfius, 03-30-2020, 03:34 PM
                                136 responses
                                9,183 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Rushing Jaws  
                                Started by seanD, 03-26-2020, 11:05 AM
                                75 responses
                                5,279 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post seanD
                                by seanD
                                 
                                Started by seanD, 05-29-2019, 06:07 AM
                                201 responses
                                23,290 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post seanD
                                by seanD
                                 
                                Working...
                                X