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"Appointed unto men ONCE to die" contradicts the rapture's "translation" myth

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  • #91
    Good day, 3 Resurrections. Please forgive my dismissive tone in my last post. I have the ability to distinguish between the argument and the person I am arguing against, so that while I may have contempt for their idea, I can still honor and respect the individual. But I realize that does not easily come across, especially through text. You have been nothing but respectful in your posts here that I have seen and I want to make sure you know that while I do despise your theory because I think it dishonors God and leads people astray, I believe that you are a kindhearted person who would not do either of those things consciously. But Scripture says the heart is deceitful above all things and that only the truth can save us, so I hope you come to a saving knowledge of the truth, as is my hope for everyone I interact with here.

    I'm sure you are familiar with the concept of presuppositions, but I will define it for clarity's sake. Presuppositions are those beliefs and ideas we already possess and assume before engaging with a new concept. For example, before a heliocentric view came to be mainstream, most people interpreting the data (planetary orbits, eclipses, etc.) assumed a geocentric model and therefore the data was colored by that viewpoint to the point that it was difficult if not impossible for them to interpret the data correctly.

    We all have presuppositions (or biases), but the task of the truth seeking individual who desires something as near to objectivity as possible is to constantly examine and acknowledge our presuppositions so that we can be open to a new interpretation if that is what the data requires.

    When Sparko and I accuse you of eisegesis, it is because when we present Scripture to you that clearly contradicts your theory in some fundamental way, your presupposition that your theory is correct causes you to glaze over the contradiction or absurdity and double down on some other Scripture (ultimately tangential and not as critical) that you believe props up your theory. That is of course the improper way to go about things. Scripture should interpret Scripture in as cohesive a fashion as we are capable of by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

    In Hebrews 9:27, the author is not offering a law that states that men can only die once--no more, no less. That is to both miss the point of the surrounding context and to misunderstand Hebraic (and other Near Eastern) thought. For example, when Jesus said He would be "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth", by any reckoning He rose early on the third day, which meant the third day was only a partial one. But in Hebrew thought, part of a day was considered a day. Or when Paul said he wished the Galatians would castrate themselves, he doesn't really wish that, he is speaking hyperbolically. It was enough for the purposes of the author of Hebrews that in general, men die once. His actual point can be gleaned from the context:

    Scripture Verse: Hebrews 9

    23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

    © Copyright Original Source



    It is the culmination of his argument as to why Christ's sacrifice was salvific. The animal sacrifices could never save, they were meant to copy and foreshadow the sacrifice that can. Even if man could redeem himself by dying, his own death--which occurs once, unlike the animal sacrifices--is not redemptive. He still faces judgment. But Christ's sacrifice, which also occurs just once, is redemptive.

    Lastly, I will show you a couple of instances where it is clear that men died, resurrected, and later died. Clear not merely because the alternative of nature-controlling, shapeshifting, sinful immortals is absurd, but because other Scripture makes it clear.

    Scripture Verse: 2 Kings 13

    20 Elisha died and was buried.

    Now Moabite raiders used to enter the country every spring. 21 Once while some Israelites were burying a man, suddenly they saw a band of raiders; so they threw the man’s body into Elisha’s tomb. When the body touched Elisha’s bones, the man came to life and stood up on his feet.

    © Copyright Original Source



    There is no hint given that this man was resurrected for his personal piety or to give some glory to God. In fact, the narrative intentionally stresses the accidental, haphazard manner of his resurrection, which seems to have occurred for a reason similar to the healings which accompanied both Jesus and the disciples when their garments were touched--an overbundance of holy power which caused corruption and death to shrink back and life to overflow. Elisha had a double portion of Elijah's spirit. This man certainly later died.

    Scripture Verse: Jonah 2

    1 From inside the fish Jonah prayed to the Lord his God. 2 He said:

    “In my distress I called to the Lord,
    and he answered me.
    From deep in the realm of the dead I called for help,
    and you listened to my cry.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Jonah clearly died and was resurrected when God caused the whale to spew him out.

    Scripture Verse: Jonah 4

    But to Jonah this seemed very wrong, and he became angry. 2 He prayed to the Lord, “Isn’t this what I said, Lord, when I was still at home? That is what I tried to forestall by fleeing to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. 3 Now, Lord, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than to live.”

    4 But the Lord replied, “Is it right for you to be angry?”

    5 Jonah had gone out and sat down at a place east of the city. There he made himself a shelter, sat in its shade and waited to see what would happen to the city. 6 Then the Lord God provided a leafy plantand made it grow up over Jonah to give shade for his head to ease his discomfort, and Jonah was very happy about the plant. 7 But at dawn the next day God provided a worm, which chewed the plant so that it withered. 8 When the sun rose, God provided a scorching east wind, and the sun blazed on Jonah’s head so that he grew faint. He wanted to die, and said, “It would be better for me to die than to live.”

    © Copyright Original Source



    How could a glorified body "grow faint" or experience "discomfort"? It can't. Why would Jonah ask to die if that was impossible? He wouldn't.

    Scripture Verse: Acts 14

    19 Then some Jews came from Antioch and Iconium and won the crowd over. They stoned Paul and dragged him outside the city, thinking he was dead. 20 But after the disciples had gathered around him, he got up and went back into the city. The next day he and Barnabas left for Derbe.

    © Copyright Original Source



    They thought Paul was dead because he was dead. I don't know if you've ever witnessed a stoning, but there's no confusion about when someone killed by that method is dead. Especially to a culture for which that method of killing is a staple. Nor would Paul have been able to hop up and go about his business unless God had restored his life, his broken bones and his internal bleeding. And later Paul was beheaded.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
      Sparko, here's another commonplace example that shows how Jesus could be referred to by the prophets of old, who "told before of the coming of the Just One." Suppose you tell someone, "My wife went to kindergarten at such and such a school." We know very well that the little 5-year old girl was not your wife at the time she was attending kindergarten. This is just the ordinary way we refer to older people when discussing activities in their younger days. It's the same with references to the martyred ones in Revelation 20:4 who were "beheaded for the testimony of Jesus". The "Word" which became Jesus in His incarnate form did not have to be existing yet in that body of flesh for the prophets to be giving testimony of the "coming of the Just One", which you and I (and John's readers as well) associate with the name of Jesus. John's audience knew then that the second person of the Trinity was revealed in Jesus, so that is why John used His name when speaking of what was done back in the OT days when the millennium period of Satan's binding was launched.

      And no, none of these saints mentioned in Revelation lived, (like Methuselah almost did), for a literal thousand years total. The language Revelation 20:4 uses doesn't require that. Suppose an art teacher is showing examples of classical paintings to her students, and tells the class, "These were done by a Renaissance painter". The students do not automatically presume that the painter lived for the entire duration of the Renaissance period, start to finish.

      It's the same with the millennial saints that faithfully "reigned in life" with Christ (formerly titled "The Word") for that thousand years when Satan was bound. It's not necessary that they all had extended lifetimes of a thousand years duration, start to finish, with all of them reigning jointly with each other for the entire period. All that is required for the language of Rev. 20:4 is that at some point on the timeline of the millennium years from 968/967 BC until AD 33, these saints had in their turn lived ordinary lives of faith before their God while He had Satan bound from deceiving the nations. Some were martyred for their faith - like the prophets Jezebel slew. Some were not - like Elisha. Some had not participated in giving homage to the Sea Beast as far back as in Nebuchadnezzar's days - like Daniel and his three friends . Some did not take the mark of the Sea Beast imposed on the Jewish people by their own leadership, the Land Beast, ever since 19 BC when the abominable, pagan Tyrian shekel minted at Jerusalem began to be required for temple sales and purchases.

      And NO. The Revelation 20:4-5 saints that came to life again WERE called the FIRST resurrection - not the second. "THIS is the First resurrection", John says. That word "THIS" is pointing directly to the Rev. 20:4-5 resurrected saints he had just mentioned. Don't know how you can miss that. And you still have not addressed the very clear evidence in Rev. 12:12 compared with this Rev. 20:3 & 7 verses proving that the millennium was ALREADY OVER by the time John was writing Revelation. Unless you don't think that Satan's "little season" and "short time" are speaking of the same time period.

      I'm not trying to be prideful, Sparko, truly. I'm just trying to give Jesus His rightful place as the "First resurrection" in time. In proper chronological order, it was "Christ the First-fruits, THEN they that are Christ's at His coming", which was going to be the second AD 70 resurrection soon to come that almost every book of the NT spoke about.
      Again, you are just ignoring plain language where it suits you (them living and reigning with Jesus for 1000 years), while you stick to a literal word for word interpretation where it is obvious that is not what is meant ("die once")

      The Son was not "Jesus" pre-incarnation, he was simply known as the 2nd person of the Trinity. And he was never incarnate on earth for 1000 years. And you keep trying to force the 1000 years before your supposed resurrection of the saints in 33AD when it is clear that it says they live and reign with Christ after coming to life. How could they reign while dead?

      Which brings up another question, If Jesus resurrected the rest of the saints in 70AD, where are they?


      Comment


      • #93
        Hi again Darfius,

        No harm, no foul, of course. Whenever I post on any Christian forum, I PRESUME that the person on the other side of the screen has only the best motives at heart, regardless of what their viewpoint is, or how intense their language is when they express it. There is nothing I would want to write to anyone that I would have to immediately apologize for in glory when we finally meet.

        We are definitely on the same page when we agree that scripture should interpret scripture. I've really tried to do that in what I've posted on this website so far. You spoke of "presuppositions". The one "presupposition" that I held to for many, many years was the one that Cowpoke ascribes to - panmillennialism - that everything will somehow "pan out" in the end. I used to shrug off any of my own doubts about eschatology by throwing that one passage in Matthew 13:37-43 at my own nagging questions. That passage is where Christ gave His disciples a cut-and-dried explanation of His parable of the tares in the field. You know the one, "The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; the enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels..." etc.. I wrote next to these verses in the margin of my Bible "the end times - simplified", and I didn't bother to search any deeper than that one single passage for decades. A very lazy, immature response of mine, I know.

        That's not the case any more, since 8 years ago when I was led to begin the most fervent, continual Bible study in my entire Christian life. As God is my witness, I have never felt this close to my Savior - ever - and I have been a believer for about 50 years by now. I had to become willing to hold my hands up and release everything I had ever been taught IF it disagreed with what the Spirit itself was showing me from His Word. There is a very real price to be paid for doing this. Not the least of which is a polarized division between my husband and myself. He is such an ardent, guardian-type contender against what he believes to be error, that to keep him from literally having another heart attack, we simply cannot discuss spiritual things at all anymore. Nothing. Which is a vast pity, since I KNOW he loves his Lord and His Word with all his heart. My Savior takes ultimate precedence on the throne of my heart, though, and I can never retreat from what has instilled such incredible peace in my soul about these subjects. I took the Lord God at His word when He said that if we seek Him with all our heart, we will find Him. So very true.

        Darfius, you are the first one I have ever encountered that believes Jonah actually died inside the great fish. Just how he was supposed to do that desperate praying to God AFTER 3 days and nights in the great fish (if he really was dead by then), I'm not sure how you explain that. I HAVE heard some claim that Paul actually died when he was stoned in Acts 14:19, but again, it says that the disciples were "SUPPOSING he had been dead". That was their "presupposition", not based on a stated scripture fact. Don't you think that if Paul truly had died, that he would have included his dying during that stoning, along with his list of extreme tribulations that he gave to the Corinthians? (in II Cor. 11:23-28). That list reads that he was "in frequent DANGER of death" (thanatois), not that he had actually died multiple times.

        As for the single dead man raised to life again simply by having his bones touch those of the dead Elisha, there is a definite correlation between that incident and Elisha asking Elijah for a "DOUBLE PORTION" of the Spirit's power that his mentor Elijah had once had. Elijah in his ministry had raised ONE young boy from the dead. Elisha not only raised ONE more young boy to life again, but even after Elisha died, God recorded that story about the SECOND dead person being raised to life again due to contact with Elisha's bones. That's what I would call an answer to Elisha's petition for a "double portion" Elijah promised that if Elisha saw him being taken from him, that Elisha would have his request. Which Elisha did see happen, and was thus assured that his request of a "double portion" of Elijah's spirit was granted to him (II Kings 2:9-12). To say that the dead man resurrected to life merely died again later for a second time is to make a statement fabricated without scripture backing that up. And which would deny that Elisha received his request for a "double portion" of Elijah's spirit.

        You've got me puzzled as to why you think that a person given immortality in a bodily resurrection to life is STILL in a sinful state. Are you saying that the immortal, incorruptible saints in heaven will still be sinful? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. I hope so.


        Comment


        • #94
          You did it again, 3 Resurrections.

          I hope you really have grown closer to the Lord and that you have found peace, but even if true, neither one of those realities would lend any veracity to your theory. And if "the Lord" you have grown closer to is an idol of your own making (in your mind as opposed to with your hands) and your peace a result of willful self-delusion then:

          Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 6

          14 They have healed the wound of my people lightly,

          saying, ‘Peace, peace,’

          when there is no peace.

          © Copyright Original Source



          No offense, of course.

          Jonah said himself he prayed from the realm of the dead. No speculation required. The Bible presents death as a state of "sleep" and just as we are not wholly unconscious during sleep (dreams), our consciousness continues to exist after death, though in a proportionately less conscious state. See Samuel's spirit being summoned after death by Saul, for example.

          Rather than accept the logical implications of the man Elisha's corpse resurrected, you "did it again" and squeezed the new fact into the distorted shape of your pet theory. However Elisha's request for a double portion was fulfilled, something which occurred after his death certainly does not qualify as a fulfillment.

          You also seem to have a very shallow understanding of sanctification. The mere possession of a glorified body does not eradicate the possibility of sin, as the fallen angels prove. That is why Paul tells us to "work out our salvation, for it is God that works it" in us. Our fellowship with Him will never cease to be a free will choice, though the inheritance of a body which more easily obeys our wishes will aid in our obedient love--assuming obedience is our desire.

          So yes, in your absurd world where people are walking around with "glorified bodies" centuries before Christ (the supposed firstfruits of the resurrection, how does that work?), they can still sin, the very scenario God wished to avoid with our first parents:

          Scripture Verse: Genesis 3

          22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

          © Copyright Original Source



          You misread the text overtly as well as covertly this time. It was not the disciples who "supposed" Paul to be dead, but the people who killed him and dragged his lifeless body outside the city:

          Scripture Verse: Acts 14

          19 Then some Jews came from Antioch and Iconium and won the crowd over. They stoned Paul and dragged him outside the city, thinking he was dead. 20 But after the disciples had gathered around him, he got up and went back into the city. The next day he and Barnabas left for Derbe.

          © Copyright Original Source



          So as I said, the people who killed Paul thought they had killed him because they did kill him. The reason the text uses "thinking" or "supposing"--which does not preclude it being a fact--is precisely so that people like you can use it as rope to hang yourself, metaphorically speaking. It also underscores the fact that though they had done their best to kill Paul, and had temporarily succeeded, it was not their prerogative to decide his ultimate fate, it was God's.

          The fact that the disciples "gathered around him" reinforces the fact that he was dead and required apostolic "laying on of hands" in intervention, similar to another resurrection event involving Paul:

          Scripture Verse: Acts 20

          7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight. 8 There were many lamps in the upstairs room where we were meeting. 9 Seated in a window was a young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep as Paul talked on and on. When he was sound asleep, he fell to the ground from the third story and was picked up dead. 10 Paul went down, threw himself on the young man and put his arms around him. “Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “He’s alive!” 11 Then he went upstairs again and broke bread and ate. After talking until daylight, he left. 12 The people took the young man home alive and were greatly comforted.

          © Copyright Original Source



          Physical contact seemed to be a necessity in this form of resurrection, as Elijah and Elisha both stretched themselves out upon the ones they raised and the man had to touch Elisha's corpse to resurrect. This is in contradistinction to the Lord Jesus, who summoned Lazarus from death with a cry and:

          Scripture Verse: John 5

          25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

          28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

          © Copyright Original Source



          Scripture Verse: 1 Thessalonians 4

          13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

          © Copyright Original Source



          Elijah, Elisha and Paul did not have life "in themselves", they were stewards of the life and power given to them by the Lord. To suggest that they as sinners could have bestowed fellow sinners with glorified bodies is absurd and impossible. That is the prerogative of the Lord alone.

          Comment


          • #95
            Hi Sparko,

            Oh dear, I think you might be mistakenly reading some things into what I've said. Jesus the Son of Man used to be known only as "The Word" before His incarnation. I don't think we disagree about that. I agree with you that Jesus incarnate did not reign bodily on earth for a literal thousand years. God has ALWAYS reigned over the earth from heaven; though there have been varied manifestations of that reign throughout time. "Thy THRONE is established OF OLD; thou art FROM EVERLASTING" we are told about God's continual reign over all creation from heaven in Psalms 93:2. The emphasis of the time limit on the millennium is not on a reign of CHRIST being limited to a mere thousand years, but on SATAN being bound for that time. The literal 1,000-year time limitation was on SATAN - not the continual, ongoing reign over the earth from heaven for the second person of the Trinity, who later was known to John's readers as Jesus Christ the promised Messiah that should come into the world.

            Those Rev. 20:4 saints had each individually "reigned in life" with Christ at varying times during the total span of the literal 1,000 years while they were alive on earth. For example, Elisha "reigned in life" with Christ during his natural lifetime, which coincided with the 1,000-year period of time when Satan was bound. The greatly-beloved prophet Daniel also "reigned in life" with Christ during his lifetime of faithfulness, which occurred within the 1,000-year time period. Later on, John the Baptist and his father Zechariah both "reigned in life" with Christ during their lifetimes, which came closer to the end of the literal 1,000-year period. Every saint who happened to live at some point within that limited 1,000-year period from 968/967 BC until AD 33 also shared in reigning the thousand years during their natural lifetime. But it was only a "REMNANT" (loipoi - meaning a mere FRACTION of those saints who had once lived during the millennium period) who "lived AGAIN" by resurrection when the 1,000 years had ended. That "REMNANT" FRACTION from among all those faithful dead were identified as being "the FIRST resurrection".

            There is only one event that qualifies as being the "FIRST resurrection" event. And that is Jesus Christ the "First-fruits"; as the "First-born", and the "First-begotten" of that 144,000 "First-fruits" group of Matt. 27 saints raised with Him. All prophecy swirls around that one main event as the spokes of a wheel point to the hub of that wheel. Everything prophetic BEFORE then looked FORWARD in hope to Christ's bodily "First resurrection". Everything prophetic AFTER Christ's bodily resurrection looks BACKWARD to that pivotal moment in history. So that in all things Christ can have the preeminence.

            That next, numberless group of saints raised in AD 70 were raptured to heaven at that year's Pentecost Day when Christ returned to the Mount of Olives to "gather" all of them together and return to heaven with them. You and I, Sparko, are not that different in the end result of our paradigms; just in the number of stages that God employed to achieve that same conclusion. You believe it all was to occur one time only at the end of human history. I believe scripture teaches that it was to be incrementally divided into three separate stages over time.

            Sparko, my entire paradigm rests on correctly identifying Christ's AD 33 resurrection as being the "First resurrection". All the rest of prophecy is tied to that critical moment in one way or another. You couldn't possibly come up with any better theme than your avatar's slideshow of Christ's death and resurrection. I hope you don't change it.

            Comment


            • #96
              The holy people in Matthew 27 were not raised with glorified bodies, but in a manner similar to Lazarus. That's why the event was localized to Jerusalem. Surely you know holy people existed outside of Jerusalem.

              Comment


              • #97
                Why do none of the early church tathers talk about this? I've never heard your ideas anywhere else. Are you sure you are okay? Healthwise?
                If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                Comment


                • #98
                  Hey again Darfius, These verses express who gets the credit for any righteous acts we are given the ability to perform. "For it is *GOD* THAT WORKETH IN YOU, both to will and to do of His good pleasure." And "What hast thou that thou hast not received? Now, if thou DIDST receive it, why dost thou glory as if thou hadst NOT received it?"

                  The very reason God waited until Elisha was dead to have that man raised from the dead by contact with Elisha's bones was the same reason Abraham's dead loins were used by God to produce Isaac, according to promise. In this way, GOD got the credit for the miraculous resurrection of that dead man, and He still made good on the promise given to Elisha for a "double portion". God ALWAYS keeps His promises. Even when He waits to fulfill them after we are dead. Which gives HIM the glory and not us. We are, as you have said, only the stewards of whatever power God chooses to grant to us.

                  As for the example of angels "falling" into sin, I believe the "ELECT angels" were those chosen by God out of the angelic hosts to be preserved in a state of holy obedience to Him. The others were NOT ELECT, and so fell. Our flesh is "terrestrial flesh". The angels have a different "celestial flesh" of their own order of created beings, according to Paul in I Cor. 15:40. The glory of our resurrected, terrestrial flesh is of one kind, and the elect angels' celestial flesh is of another kind of glory. Once our own type of flesh is glorified into incorruptible flesh and bones like that of the risen Christ, there is no possibility for it to fall into sin ever again. Because it is then animated by the Holy Spirit alone, who doesn't have any sin. You seem to want to limit God's power to preserve His own from falling, for some reason or another. There is no "REST" for the saints in such a precarious standing as you are presenting. And our Christ invites us to come and experience REST for our souls in Him. He has "SEALED" us until the day of redemption. Seals have permanence in God's salvation decreed for us.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Hi Christianbookworm,

                    Yes, the early church father Quadratus DID write about the miraculous healing of the sick and the bodily resurrections performed by Christ and the disciples to the emperor Hadrian, according to Eusebius's history. We have just the one preserved piece of Quadratus's writing, due to Eusebius copying it. His other works have been lost. I feel just fine health-wise, except for some arthritis cropping up, which is to be expected at my age.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
                      Hi Christianbookworm,

                      Yes, the early church father Quadratus DID write about the miraculous healing of the sick and the bodily resurrections performed by Christ and the disciples to the emperor Hadrian, according to Eusebius's history. We have just the one preserved piece of Quadratus's writing, due to Eusebius copying it. His other works have been lost. I feel just fine health-wise, except for some arthritis cropping up, which is to be expected at my age.
                      Please provide a qoute from one stating that people in 70ad were raised from the dead in the same manner as Christ.
                      If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                      Comment


                      • Oh, sorry, Christianbookworm, I thought you were referring to the AD 33 bodily resurrection. As for the AD 70 resurrection when all the resurrected saints were gathered to the Jerusalem Mount of Olives location and taken to heaven from there with Christ, that event was witnessed by the Jews besieged in Jerusalem at that time. "Every eye" of "those who pierced Him" saw this Pentecost day return from their besieged position within the city, as prophesied. But by the time Jerusalem was taken in AD 70, all those besieged eye-witnesses were either dead by famine, sword, and plague, or they were taken captive and sent to die in Roman Coliseums or in slavery across the empire. Not exactly conditions that allowed them to make or preserve records of the event, even had they wished to provide a record of their own humiliating defeat by a Christ Jesus that they did not believe in anyway. And dead people don't write memoirs.

                        As for any favorable Christian witnesses that would have wanted to give an eye-witness report if they had seen it happen, these had already obeyed Christ's warning to depart Jerusalem and Judea and flee to the mountains (the Pella region in the Decapolis, for example), as He had told them to do when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by abominable armies. And they DID flee in October AD 66 when the Roman army under Cestius Gallus and the Zealot armies squared off against one another at Jerusalem. This gave the believers in Jerusalem a precious couple of days to get out of the city while the Zealot armies were out chasing down the Romans away from Jerusalem, and squashing Gallus' legion around Beth-Horon before they returned victoriously to Jerusalem. Josephus records a mass exodus of refugees from Jerusalem at that particular time in Wars 2.19.6.

                        You yourself may not believe the story of Christ's AD 70 return when he resurrected the dead saints, but those AD 66 Christians in Jerusalem and Judea certainly believed it was about to happen on their near horizon. They believed that Christ's prediction of the Great Tribulation (which was to be IMMEDIATELY followed by a resurrection at His return) was going to begin in that AD 66 year when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by the Roman and Zealot armies. Their obedient, hasty flight out of Judea and Jerusalem at that time proves that they believed Him.

                        We can calculate the approximate number of those who heeded Christ's warning to flee the city, which amounted to roughly 1-1/4 million people. If you take the Passover AD 66 census records made in Jerusalem by Cestius Gallus for Nero, and then subtract the number of casualties in Judea and Jerusalem taking place between AD 66 and the end of AD 70 when the Romans took the city, the number of those still living at the end of AD 70 who SHOULD have been present in Jerusalem are considerably less by that 1-1/4 million amount. That was the number of people still alive in Judea and Jerusalem who had never returned for any reason to Jerusalem from AD 66 to AD 70. In other words, about 1-1/4 million people took Jesus at His word and fled town before the Great Tribulation period started in AD 66. And since that Great Tribulation period was to be followed "IMMEDIATELY" by Christ's return and the bodily resurrection for the saints (Matthew 24:29-30), this particular resurrection is a matter of ancient history by now.

                        Those casualty lists from AD 66 through AD 70 are available for our comparison on the last page of Ussher's Annals of the World, as compiled by one Justus Lipsius. I can give you the numbers if you like.

                        Comment


                        • So, nonfalsifiable? Convenient.
                          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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                          • Ummmm, not exactly sure what you mean. What IS true without a doubt are the very words of Jesus in Luke 21:36. After giving the entire list of the things that would "FIRST come to pass" (during the "beginning of sorrows, as Matthew 24:8 phrased it), Christ then told his disciples what the "days of vengeance" would include (or the "Great Tribulation" as Matthew 24:21 called it), all the way down to the shaking of the powers of heaven and the view of the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory, when their redemption would take place. Then He told the disciples, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape ALL these things that ARE *ABOUT TO* (mellonta) COME TO PASS, and to stand before the Son of Man." I think its about 13 of 45 translations that recognize this Greek term indicating how imminent those events were for that generation, and translate this verse accordingly.

                            If that ENTIRE list of things Jesus had just mentioned was ALL "ABOUT TO come to pass", that doesn't allow for a 2,000-year and more delay before they soon transpired. This is very clear that the message was devoted to the disciples' first-century generation, because Jesus said that their generation would not pass away, till ALL of that list of events was fulfilled. Especially since only THAT generation was going to be "delivered up to the synagogues" and have to defend themselves before "councils" of their time period - meaning the Sanhedrin. You and I, Christianbookworm, and no generation in the future will be dragged by Jewish people and delivered up to any synagogues to give an answer for our faith before a Sanhedrin council. That was a first-century phenomena that the disciples experienced to the letter.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
                              Hi Sparko,

                              Oh dear, I think you might be mistakenly reading some things into what I've said. Jesus the Son of Man used to be known only as "The Word" before His incarnation. I don't think we disagree about that. I agree with you that Jesus incarnate did not reign bodily on earth for a literal thousand years. God has ALWAYS reigned over the earth from heaven; though there have been varied manifestations of that reign throughout time. "Thy THRONE is established OF OLD; thou art FROM EVERLASTING" we are told about God's continual reign over all creation from heaven in Psalms 93:2. The emphasis of the time limit on the millennium is not on a reign of CHRIST being limited to a mere thousand years, but on SATAN being bound for that time. The literal 1,000-year time limitation was on SATAN - not the continual, ongoing reign over the earth from heaven for the second person of the Trinity, who later was known to John's readers as Jesus Christ the promised Messiah that should come into the world.

                              Those Rev. 20:4 saints had each individually "reigned in life" with Christ at varying times during the total span of the literal 1,000 years while they were alive on earth. For example, Elisha "reigned in life" with Christ during his natural lifetime, which coincided with the 1,000-year period of time when Satan was bound. The greatly-beloved prophet Daniel also "reigned in life" with Christ during his lifetime of faithfulness, which occurred within the 1,000-year time period. Later on, John the Baptist and his father Zechariah both "reigned in life" with Christ during their lifetimes, which came closer to the end of the literal 1,000-year period. Every saint who happened to live at some point within that limited 1,000-year period from 968/967 BC until AD 33 also shared in reigning the thousand years during their natural lifetime. But it was only a "REMNANT" (loipoi - meaning a mere FRACTION of those saints who had once lived during the millennium period) who "lived AGAIN" by resurrection when the 1,000 years had ended. That "REMNANT" FRACTION from among all those faithful dead were identified as being "the FIRST resurrection".

                              There is only one event that qualifies as being the "FIRST resurrection" event. And that is Jesus Christ the "First-fruits"; as the "First-born", and the "First-begotten" of that 144,000 "First-fruits" group of Matt. 27 saints raised with Him. All prophecy swirls around that one main event as the spokes of a wheel point to the hub of that wheel. Everything prophetic BEFORE then looked FORWARD in hope to Christ's bodily "First resurrection". Everything prophetic AFTER Christ's bodily resurrection looks BACKWARD to that pivotal moment in history. So that in all things Christ can have the preeminence.

                              That next, numberless group of saints raised in AD 70 were raptured to heaven at that year's Pentecost Day when Christ returned to the Mount of Olives to "gather" all of them together and return to heaven with them. You and I, Sparko, are not that different in the end result of our paradigms; just in the number of stages that God employed to achieve that same conclusion. You believe it all was to occur one time only at the end of human history. I believe scripture teaches that it was to be incrementally divided into three separate stages over time.

                              Sparko, my entire paradigm rests on correctly identifying Christ's AD 33 resurrection as being the "First resurrection". All the rest of prophecy is tied to that critical moment in one way or another. You couldn't possibly come up with any better theme than your avatar's slideshow of Christ's death and resurrection. I hope you don't change it.
                              Don't you see how overly convoluted your theory is getting as you try to shoehorn in what the bible clearly says into your pet theory? First you say "die once" literally has to mean "only die once" and it has to apply to every person, but then when you read plain words saying that the saints were resurrected and reigned with Christ for 1000 years, you can't accept that as the plain words they are so you have to come up with convoluted explanations to make it say the exact opposite of what it clearly says. Now 1000 years only applies to Satan, when it clearly says that the risen saints will reign with Christ for 1000 years. And it is talking about ON EARTH, because it says that Satan is locked up during that time and then will be let loose to attack us. So the 1000 years HAS to come after the resurrection.

                              And what is the point of resurrecting saints to heaven? When you die your spirit already goes to heaven. The point of resurrection is to reunite your spirit with your glorified body ON EARTH, Which is where we are going to live forever, on the New Earth. and Heaven will come down in the form of New Jerusalem and be with us. The only reason Jesus is bodily in heaven right now is because he resurrected into his glorified body as an example but he wasn't ready to bring about the New Earth yet, so he is in heaven waiting until the time is right. Then he will come back, and destroy the evil and rapture the saints and resurrect the dead. Then the judgment.

                              Your way makes zero sense. Stop trying to force the bible into your theory and let the bible speak for itself. Please.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
                                Hey again Christianbookworm,

                                Of course, to be sure, for the believer, "mortality will put on immortality". But what that I Cor. 15:53 verse is describing is the change to immortality of the same DEAD bodies of the saints into their living, incorruptible forms, equipped for a face-to-face eternity with God. That verse is NOT describing a translation-type of change for the bodies of LIVING believers who have never died yet. You've got to read the whole context. "So, when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, THEN shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, 'DEATH is swallowed up in victory'. O DEATH, where is thy sting? O GRAVE, where is thy victory?" This is a promised victory over THE GRAVE which cannot hold the dead bodies of believers in its grip. The bodily resurrection for us will see to that. It's the same hope Job anticipated when he said "If a man DIE, shall he live again? All the days of my appointed time will I wait, TILL MY *CHANGE* COME." Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands." (Job. 14:14-15).

                                This is definitely NOT hyper-Preterist teaching. They typically deny any physical resurrection of the dead bodies of the saints. In contrast to them, I am a H U G E supporter of a bodily resurrection for the saints. So much so, that I see scripture teaching about THREE separate bodily resurrection events over the total span of human history. Two of these events have already occurred. One is yet to come for us in the distant future. It will not be soon. Sorry to disappoint.


                                These are a few other points where the Full-Preterist position and I do NOT align: I believe that...


                                Scripture teaches a LITERAL thousand-year millennium in Revelation 20, that ended in AD 33 with Christ and that First resurrection in which He led out of the grave the Matthew 27:52-53, 144,000 "First-fruits" "remnant of the dead" saints.

                                Scripture lays out a pattern for no less and no more than THREE main bodily resurrection events staged to have taken place on Passover AD 33, Pentecost Day in AD 70, and the final future one for us at the time of year the Feast of Tabernacles would have ordinarily been celebrated back in the Old Covenant.

                                Christ BODILY returned to the Mount of Olives in AD 70 to resurrect the saints, as He had promised, to "receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also". AD 70 dated earthquake landslide rubble layers are lying on the slopes of the Mount of Olives today, proving the fulfilment of the Zechariah 14:4-5 (LXX) prophecy.

                                The I Thess. 4 rapture was a literal raising of the saints' physical bodies out of the dust of the grave in AD 70 on that year's Pentecost feast Day.

                                Satan was NOT bound at the cross; instead, he was LOOSED from his millennial chain by being cast out of heaven to the earth after Christ's first ascension on His resurrection day in AD 33. Satan knew he had only a SHORT TIME before he and his angels would be first imprisoned in Jerusalem, and then totally destroyed in Jerusalem's Lake of Fire in AD 70, as scripture testifies in several places.

                                Emperor Nero was NOT the one called the "Man of Lawlessness", since he never was physically present in the Old Jerusalem temple claiming to be God, as the Zealot leader Menahem actually did in AD 66.

                                The number 666 is NOT figured out by the gematria process. It stands for the calculated number of YEARS that the Sea Beast had existed prior to John's writing Revelation.

                                That book of Revelation was written somewhere between late AD 59 and early AD 60, just before the AD 60 Laodicean earthquake.

                                The eight "KINGS of the earth" in Rev. 17:10-11 were NOT the Roman emperors. They were the 8 high priesthood members of Annas's family who served as high priest one after the other in the years from AD 6 until AD 66. "Kings of the earth" is Christ's name for the high priests of Israel.

                                There are no less than THREE Beasts found in Revelation: the Sea Beast, the Land Beast, and the Scarlet Beast found in the wilderness. Different biographies and characteristics for all three. The first beast was Roman, and the last two beasts were Judean.

                                Christ currently STILL retains His glorified, resurrected body form that "passed into the heavens", and is now interceding for us as a high priest on His throne - the mercy seat in heaven's temple.

                                There are no less than 7 millennial ages that will form the total of all of fallen mankind's history on this planet. We are currently finishing up the sixth millennium age, and are soon about to pass into the 7th one - in 2033.

                                I'm a no-gap proponent of Daniel's 70-week prophecy, lasting from Artaxerxes I's decree in 454 BC until AD 37.


                                I could keep going, but you get the idea. I don't fall into any one category, so I'm a hybrid, I guess. "I ain't got no home." And to my knowledge, I have NEVER dodged an honest question. I've promised Darfius a post on "How many ages are there?", which I fully intend to deliver.
                                Your timelines are atrocious. And I'll say this once again, 70 AD was pointless to Biblical prophecy. Once the veil was torn, the Temple building lost its purpose. Destroying and defiling a pointless building by the Romans has no place in Christian eschatology.
                                That's what
                                - She

                                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                                Stephen R. Donaldson

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