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"Appointed unto men ONCE to die" contradicts the rapture's "translation" myth

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

    as far as sins go, everything is forgiven and we have eternal life. past, present and future. The only judgment we face is one for rewards for our works. Some will get crowns and some will get through by the skin of their teeth but still are saved.
    Kinda like awards day where some kids get honor roll!
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

    Comment


    • #32
      LOL, Sparko, for a Preterist, the usual accusation is that they take things too SYMBOLICALLY - not too literally! Here I am taking scripture at literal face value, and that is called "eisegesis"? "ONCE to die" means ONCE - not twice, or any number of times more than that. What you do NOT have, Sparko, is a scripture record of any resurrected saints dying again later on. This is merely a PRESUMPTION on your part, and on anyone else that makes that claim in opposition to Hebrews 9:27's clear statement. PLEASE, find the proof of a resurrected saint dying again in the scripture, and I will do a public retraction of my statement.

      I have never said that any resurrected saints in scripture "wandered the earth FOREVER" or were "translated". I am arguing AGAINST a translation-type change for the living believers at Christ's next return. Have you never done a study of what happened to the Matthew 27 saints resurrected along with Christ? You really should. Their footprints are all over the New Testament in the most unexpected places.

      This I Thess. 4 text about the predicted rapture experience for the resurrected saints was Paul's firm response to the Hymenaeus and Philetus heresy that had grown up BECAUSE of the continued presence of the Matthew 27 "First-fruits" resurrected saints still around in the early church. Hymenaeus and Philetus either knew of them or had encountered some of them and were teaching their heresy saying that "the resurrection is PAST already" by pointing out the continued existence of that memorable 144,000 "First-fruits" group of individuals in their midst. They were teaching that the astounding resurrection of Christ and those 144,000 "First-fruits" Matthew 27 saints raised with Him was the ONLY resurrection that the saints could ever expect. "Over and done with" was their mistaken message that discouraged the saints of the time. So convincing was their argument, that it had "overthrown the faith of some", as Paul said in II Timothy 2:18.

      To counter that erroneous message of discouragement built up by Hymenaeus and Philetus, Paul wrote the I Thess. 4 chapter explaining how the NEXT bodily resurrection (which came in AD 70) would occur for the dead relatives of the believers. Those already "alive and REMAINING" saints (like the Matthew 27 saints), would NOT get to heaven before the other dead saints who were relatives of the grieving believers. No. God would see to it that "the dead in Christ would rise FIRST". THEN, and ONLY AFTER THAT, would those like the "alive and remaining" Matthew 27 resurrected saints be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord together in the air. God would not leave a single saint's body behind in the dust of the grave. It was just as Paul said in I Cor. 15:51; "We shall N O T all sleep, but we shall all be changed..." NOT A SINGLE ONE of the dead saints would stay asleep in the grave, but ALL the dead believers would be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

      If I Thess. 4 was speaking of the "living" believers who had never died who would be raptured, why do you think it was necessary for Paul to insert the word "REMAIN' in the phrase? He would have just said "We who are ALIVE shall be caught up together with them in the clouds..." But He didn't. That word "REMAIN" was put there for a reason. It indicated a RESERVED STATUS - something set aside for a particular purpose. That's what the Greek term "perileipomenoi" indicates. When Paul said "We who are alive and REMAIN..." he was referring to those in the church like the Matthew 27 resurrected saints who had REMAINED on earth to serve in "edifying the body of Christ" (Ephesians 4:12). That is why the 144,000 "First-fruits" resurrected saints (of Matthew 27) were the only ones who could "learn that song" in Revelation 14:3. Their experience would be a unique one - never to be duplicated either before then or afterward in history.
      Last edited by 3 Resurrections; 03-29-2021, 04:03 PM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
        LOL, Sparko, for a Preterist, the usual accusation is that they take things too SYMBOLICALLY - not too literally! Here I am taking scripture at literal face value, and that is called "eisegesis"? "ONCE to die" means ONCE - not twice, or any number of times more than that. What you do NOT have, Sparko, is a scripture record of any resurrected saints dying again later on. This is merely a PRESUMPTION on your part, and on anyone else that makes that claim in opposition to Hebrews 9:27's clear statement. PLEASE, find the proof of a resurrected saint dying again in the scripture, and I will do a public retraction of my statement.
        It says appointed to die once. That doesn't LIMIT the number of deaths to one. It simply means that everyone is gonna die AT LEAST once. That is what I mean by you taking things too literally. Hebrews is simply saying, "Everyone will die and face judgment" - And as mossy pointed out, we won't actually face judgment in the normal use of the word, we are exempt from the white throne judgment and will only be judged on our actions for rewards.

        Why do you think you have such special knowledge concerning this that nobody else ever had? If what you believe is so obvious, then why don't all of the major denominations believe the same? What makes you think you are so "special?"

        One of the obvious signs of someone who is off base, or heretical is thinking they have special knowledge that they have gleaned from the bible that nobody else in 2000 years has. We have had plenty of them over the years here. We had one guy who claimed he found a "Bible Wheel" that gave him special insight into the bible. He eventually repented and realized how wrong he was. He has even made a website debunking himself. You can read his story here: https://www.biblewheel.com/Blog/debu...trip-its-been/

        Another one found a special bible code in the bible that gave him insight into the antichrist. When I argued against him, he used his "code" to prove my username, Sparko translated into "Beelzebub!"

        Oh and the guy who thought YHWH was a fire-breathing dragon.

        You are not special, you are wrong.

        Last edited by Sparko; 03-30-2021, 09:45 AM.

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        • #34
          I don't even know what to call the claim that there were two ancient mass resurrections and one future one apparently occurring upon the extinction of our species.
          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
            I don't even know what to call the claim that there were two ancient mass resurrections and one future one apparently occurring upon the extinction of our species.
            Wrong, would be a good place to start.


            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by mossrose View Post

              Wrong, would be a good place to start.
              So wrong I don't know where to start. I don't recall there being emptied tombs in 70 AD and there aren't any glorified saints walking among us today. And sleeping believers are physically dead!
              If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

              Comment


              • #37
                I am still confused about what 3 Resurrections believes.

                What are the 3 resurrections? And if the saints were resurrected in 70AD, where are they? Still on Earth?


                Comment


                • #38
                  One thing everybody is forgetting: our secured status as sons of God when we are SPIRITUALLY resurrected - never to die again spiritually - is pictured by our PHYSICALLY-resurrected state - ALSO never to die again physically.

                  If you get rid of the PHYSICAL secured status of being in a bodily-resurrected condition, then you have also gotten rid of what it symbolized - our secured, sealed status of being SPIRITUALLY resurrected children of God. Now, for some who deny the "Once an adopted son, ALWAYS an adopted son" doctrine, this argument might not mean anything for you. But for those of us who DO believe that "once an adopted son, ALWAYS an adopted son" doctrine, this argument should hold some weight for you.
                  Last edited by 3 Resurrections; 03-30-2021, 01:03 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Uh, pretty sure we ALL believe in a physical resurrection, so don't know what you are talking about. It's not just some symbol.
                    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      I'm offended I didn't make your list of crazies, Sparko. Was it something I said? Meanwhile I'm watching the preterists here fight amongst themselves like:

                      mike popcorn.gif

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                        I'm offended I didn't make your list of crazies, Sparko. Was it something I said? Meanwhile I'm watching the preterists here fight amongst themselves like:

                        mike popcorn.gif
                        Huh. Well I am not sure you really do have any crazy theological beliefs, just weird conspiracy theories about the end-times, like the Mandela Effect thing. That and being an asshat.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I don't see any preterists fighting among themselves either. One, maybe.


                          Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                            I don't see any preterists fighting among themselves either. One, maybe.
                            I find it difficult to differentiate between those who say everything bad happened to the Jews in the distant past and those who think they will be raptured out of harm's way while everything bad happens to the Jews in the near future. The spirit behind them both is the same and it isn't Christ's Spirit.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              I lean towards orthodox preterism, but I'm not dogmatic about secondary issues. Just find it funny that certain people think others have a different view just because they disagree about one thing. It'llall pan out in the end. The important thing is to know and trust Jesus. Not whether He will return before I die or not. We can't know the time, but we will all be in His presence eventually either way.
                              If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                                I lean towards orthodox preterism, but I'm not dogmatic about secondary issues. Just find it funny that certain people think others have a different view just because they disagree about one thing. It'llall pan out in the end. The important thing is to know and trust Jesus. Not whether He will return before I die or not. We can't know the time, but we will all be in His presence eventually either way.
                                I know this comforts you to say, but are you certain it is true? I don't find any verses that say, "All I require is lip service" and many verses which say otherwise.

                                Comment

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