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"Appointed unto men ONCE to die" contradicts the rapture's "translation" myth

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    I've never heard of anyone putting the Millennium before the crucifixion....
    It is indeed bizarre.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by mossrose View Post

      It is indeed bizarre.
      We do get some interesting folks here. I'm still trying to figure out why every last human would need to be dead at the final Ressurection.
      If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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      • #18
        Oh, bless you no, mossrose. I'm not Jehovah''s Witness. I've been a member of independent Baptist churches for about 16 years of my early married life. I've then been a Southern Baptist church member for the most recent 16 years until I decided for the peace of the family that I would cordially drop my membership where my husband was one of the ordained pastors, and where he is still an elder. Doesn't look well for the leadership to have known division between the husband and wife's beliefs on eschatology (and a number of other things also), so the church and I parted amicably about 5 years ago.

        For Christianbookworm, it is really quite simple to date the ENDING of the Rev. 20 millennium by comparing Rev. 12:12 with Rev. 20:3 and 7. We all know that Satan was supposed to be loosed for a "LITTLE SEASON" just after the millennium had expired. Revelation 12:12 has John giving a warning to his readers that Satan was ALREADY loosed among the inhabitants of the earth and the sea, having great wrath because he knew that he only had a "SHORT TIME" (the "little season") left to operate in this world - back THEN - before he would soon be destroyed. Since Satan had ALREADY BEEN LOOSED for a "SHORT TIME" as John was writing, that proves that the millennium MUST have ALREADY ENDED before John set pen to parchment in writing Revelation.

        The Rev. 20 millennium was supposed to provide a type - a literal thousand years of a fixed-location, physical-temple worship system - which was launched with the foundation stone of Solomon's temple being laid down in 968 / 967 BC. Christ then by His own blood sacrifice in AD 33 (a literal one thousand years later) became the anti-type fulfillment by laying down HIMSELF as the True foundation stone of the True temple not made with hands. We have then become the "living stones" built upon Christ, the "chief corner-stone". The dates when Solomon's and Zerubbabel's temple foundation stones were laid down are heavily highlighted in scripture. That's because they were meant to prefigure Christ, the "stone that the builders rejected which became the head of the corner".

        Everybody must pass through death ONCE before the judgment (according to Hebrews 9:27), so that is the necessity for the death of all the saints before the final third resurrection.
        Last edited by 3 Resurrections; 03-27-2021, 08:04 PM.

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        • #19
          By the way, mossrose, I just HAD to give you another "Amen" for your last comment, because you were stuck on 666 "amens". Couldn't leave you siting there with that particular number!... :-)

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          • #20
            Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
            By the way, mossrose, I just HAD to give you another "Amen" for your last comment, because you were stuck on 666 "amens". Couldn't leave you siting there with that particular number!... :-)
            Oh, thanks! You saved me from........something!



            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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            • #21
              . . . The passage about the "living and remaining" believers who would be caught up together with the resurrected saints makes absolutely no mention whatever of their being "translated" before they are caught up to meet the Lord together in the air. It is PRESUMED that these "living" ones are "translated", . . .
              In the words in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJV, ". . . shall be caught up . . . " refers to the "rapture." Interperaters do disagree.



              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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              • #22
                They do indeed disagree! I do NOT ascribe to the "spiritual" type of catching up that the Full / Hyper Preterists teach concerning this I Thess. 4 passage. They do this in order to avoid a physical resurrection of the bodies of the saints, which is an error on their part.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
                  Oh, bless you no, mossrose. I'm not Jehovah''s Witness. I've been a member of independent Baptist churches for about 16 years of my early married life. I've then been a Southern Baptist church member for the most recent 16 years until I decided for the peace of the family that I would cordially drop my membership where my husband was one of the ordained pastors, and where he is still an elder. Doesn't look well for the leadership to have known division between the husband and wife's beliefs on eschatology (and a number of other things also), so the church and I parted amicably about 5 years ago.

                  For Christianbookworm, it is really quite simple to date the ENDING of the Rev. 20 millennium by comparing Rev. 12:12 with Rev. 20:3 and 7. We all know that Satan was supposed to be loosed for a "LITTLE SEASON" just after the millennium had expired. Revelation 12:12 has John giving a warning to his readers that Satan was ALREADY loosed among the inhabitants of the earth and the sea, having great wrath because he knew that he only had a "SHORT TIME" (the "little season") left to operate in this world - back THEN - before he would soon be destroyed. Since Satan had ALREADY BEEN LOOSED for a "SHORT TIME" as John was writing, that proves that the millennium MUST have ALREADY ENDED before John set pen to parchment in writing Revelation.

                  The Rev. 20 millennium was supposed to provide a type - a literal thousand years of a fixed-location, physical-temple worship system - which was launched with the foundation stone of Solomon's temple being laid down in 968 / 967 BC. Christ then by His own blood sacrifice in AD 33 (a literal one thousand years later) became the anti-type fulfillment by laying down HIMSELF as the True foundation stone of the True temple not made with hands. We have then become the "living stones" built upon Christ, the "chief corner-stone". The dates when Solomon's and Zerubbabel's temple foundation stones were laid down are heavily highlighted in scripture. That's because they were meant to prefigure Christ, the "stone that the builders rejected which became the head of the corner".

                  Everybody must pass through death ONCE before the judgment (according to Hebrews 9:27), so that is the necessity for the death of all the saints before the final third resurrection.
                  What about people who die and are resuscitated (CPR)?

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                  • #24
                    Hey Sparko,

                    We have to depend on scripture's terms to determine when physical death actually occurs. THAT is the yardstick - not somebody's account of a resuscitation or near-death occurrence. When the "spirit returns to God who gave it", that is when death occurs. "As the body without the spirit is dead..." is how James 2:26 described it. NONE of the resurrected individuals listed in scripture were a CPR type of situation. If Hebrews 9:27 says that death is a ONE TIME "appointment" for the saints, then ONE TIME it is - NO MORE, and NO LESS. This means NO "translations" for the living saints can be expected in the future at Christ's final return. Nobody is getting out of this world alive without dying first. Hebrews 9:27 said so.

                    And no matter what the records of trauma center resuscitations would tell you about CPR cases, they have no actual way of documenting the point when a spirit returns to God who gave it. The only way the spirit of a person returns to their own dead body once more after returning to God's hands is purely by the power of the Spirit of God, who likewise raised Christ from the dead. Anyone in that condition of a resurrected state has been given incorruptible life and immortality. If you can claim that saints can die TWICE, then you have opened the door to the possibility that CHRIST can die twice also, and we know for sure that ain't gonna happen (Romans 6:9). Christ's resurrected body's continual glorified state in heaven is as assured as our own resurrected state will be, since the saints are called "joint-heirs with Christ".

                    Just for fun, I keep personalized plates on all my vehicles with the names of resurrected saints in scripture. One truck of mine I spent so much on repairs to "raise it from the dead", so to speak, that it got named "Lazarus". "Lazarus" came forth from the mechanic's shop, and it's been going ever since.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
                      Hey Sparko,

                      We have to depend on scripture's terms to determine when physical death actually occurs. THAT is the yardstick - not somebody's account of a resuscitation or near-death occurrence. When the "spirit returns to God who gave it", that is when death occurs. "As the body without the spirit is dead..." is how James 2:26 described it. NONE of the resurrected individuals listed in scripture were a CPR type of situation. If Hebrews 9:27 says that death is a ONE TIME "appointment" for the saints, then ONE TIME it is - NO MORE, and NO LESS. This means NO "translations" for the living saints can be expected in the future at Christ's final return. Nobody is getting out of this world alive without dying first. Hebrews 9:27 said so.

                      And no matter what the records of trauma center resuscitations would tell you about CPR cases, they have no actual way of documenting the point when a spirit returns to God who gave it. The only way the spirit of a person returns to their own dead body once more after returning to God's hands is purely by the power of the Spirit of God, who likewise raised Christ from the dead. Anyone in that condition of a resurrected state has been given incorruptible life and immortality. If you can claim that saints can die TWICE, then you have opened the door to the possibility that CHRIST can die twice also, and we know for sure that ain't gonna happen (Romans 6:9). Christ's resurrected body's continual glorified state in heaven is as assured as our own resurrected state will be, since the saints are called "joint-heirs with Christ".

                      Just for fun, I keep personalized plates on all my vehicles with the names of resurrected saints in scripture. One truck of mine I spent so much on repairs to "raise it from the dead", so to speak, that it got named "Lazarus". "Lazarus" came forth from the mechanic's shop, and it's been going ever since.
                      So why couldn't the resurrections in the bible have occurred before the spirit left the body?

                      But I think what you are doing is putting the emphasis on "die once" to the point of taking it too literally. The point of the verse in Hebrews was JUDGEMENT, not only dying once. It was saying that after you die (for good) then you will face judgment. And it also doesn't say you will face judgment right away either. The final judgment will be at the end of this world after everyone is resurrected. And it is talking about people in general in normal lives, it was not speaking of miracles which would be exceptions to the natural order. Those that were resurrected in the bible back to life only lived normal lives afterwards, then died natural deaths. There is nothing about them wandering the earth forever or being translated. You are just adding in stuff that isn't there in order to support the idea that you want to believe. You are reading INTO the bible. Eisogesis.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                        So why couldn't the resurrections in the bible have occurred before the spirit left the body?

                        But I think what you are doing is putting the emphasis on "die once" to the point of taking it too literally. The point of the verse in Hebrews was JUDGEMENT, not only dying once. It was saying that after you die (for good) then you will face judgment. And it also doesn't say you will face judgment right away either. The final judgment will be at the end of this world after everyone is resurrected. And it is talking about people in general in normal lives, it was not speaking of miracles which would be exceptions to the natural order. Those that were resurrected in the bible back to life only lived normal lives afterwards, then died natural deaths. There is nothing about them wandering the earth forever or being translated. You are just adding in stuff that isn't there in order to support the idea that you want to believe. You are reading INTO the bible. Eisogesis.
                        Not only all of that, but believers have already been judged. The Great White Throne Judgment is for unbelievers who have been resurrected to be sentenced for their unbelief.


                        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by mossrose View Post

                          Not only all of that, but believers have already been judged. The Great White Throne Judgment is for unbelievers who have been resurrected to be sentenced for their unbelief.
                          How? How could we already be judged for choices we haven't made yet? Or am I missing something?
                          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post

                            How? How could we already be judged for choices we haven't made yet?
                            Because people are judged based on unbelief. Believers believe?

                            Our works will be judged, but that has nothing to do with salvation.

                            John 3:18

                            Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.


                            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by mossrose View Post

                              Because people are judged based on unbelief. Believers believe?

                              Our works will be judged, but that has nothing to do with salvation.

                              John 3:18

                              Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
                              Also, the sins of every believer have been laid on Christ on the cross, and the judgment for our sins fell on Him. Hence, we have already been judged.


                              Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post

                                How? How could we already be judged for choices we haven't made yet? Or am I missing something?
                                as far as sins go, everything is forgiven and we have eternal life. past, present and future. The only judgment we face is one for rewards for our works. Some will get crowns and some will get through by the skin of their teeth but still are saved.

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