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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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"Appointed unto men ONCE to die" contradicts the rapture's "translation" myth

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  • Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
    Cerebrum123, a question for you.

    Is it an “ironclad rule” that Christ being raised from the dead NEVER will die again? Of course that is true. Your very salvation and mine depends upon it.
    Is this not a specific circumstance applying to a specific individual? For this to be a broadly applicable circumstance, there would need to be an explicit statement to that effect. e.g. "He will never die again, neither will any of his."

    Since it is truth that “Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more” (Rom. 6:9), and since we as saints are to share in the very same bodily inheritance as “joint heirs” in a glorified state along with Christ (Rom. 8:17 and Phil. 3:21), that means this same ONCE-ONLY bodily death experience is an assurance given to all saints throughout human history. No saint ever has or ever will experience dying twice or multiple times.
    It is a logical extrapolation, which probably holds true as a general principle.

    Additionally, nobody is going to get off this planet without dying the one appointed time either. God made the solitary case of the translated Enoch (aka Melchizedek) as the SINGLE exception to this rule, in order to provide the unique anti-type of Christ’s deathless high priesthood - after the order of Melchizedek.
    Elijah also got whipped away without scripture giving any reason to suppose that he died first. Two exceptions demonstrate that exceptions are possible.

    I do believe scripture in I Thess. 4 teaches a rapture of the saints, but it was to include ONLY resurrected individuals at that time. The “alive and remaining” phrase Paul used was a reference to those saints who by then had ALREADY been MADE ALIVE by a bodily-resurrection process, and who, like Lazarus the “beloved disciple”, had been in a reserved status of “remaining” on earth in that resurrected state until Jesus’s AD70 bodily return to the Mount of Olives (per Zech. 14:4-5).
    By the way, I’m a “she”, not a “he”.

    [/QUOTE]

    As for the modern-day occurrences you cite…I don’t confuse resuscitations in a trauma center or hospital with a resurrection. When the spirit returns to God who gave it, this is when death occurs.
    And there you have it. These people die twice (at least).

    Even if your comments could be accepted as wholly valid, I fail to see how they can be used to support the validity of preterism.
    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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    • Hi tabibito,

      The examples found in places such as a trauma center or a hospital do NOT show that death can occur at least twice. To resuscitate someone on the operating table with CPR, for example, is not the same as the Holy Spirit performing a resurrection in that case. Two different things entirely. I stand by Hebrews 9:27’s limit for a one-time-only death appointment per saint. The spirit of a person has to have returned to God for actual death to have occurred by scripture’s description. If the Holy Spirit restores that person’s spirit to its body made incorruptible, that is a resurrection case - never to die again.

      Elijah was not an example of a translation type of exception to this one-time death sentence. We know that he was still on earth about ten years after his transport by a whirlwind “AS IT WERE into heaven” (LXX). Meaning Elijah was simply transported through the atmospheric heaven at that time to another location on earth, to eventually die one time like the rest of humanity. Check out II Chronicles 21:12-15. Elijah was then still on earth about ten years after his whirlwind transport, writing a letter to King Jehoram, reproving him for his sins, and predicting his manner of death.

      Jesus also said to Nicodemus in John 3;13 that “NO MAN hath ascended up to heaven” - which would include Elijah, too, until that time in history at the very least.

      The specific example of Christ’s one-time-only death experience is directly compared to the saints’ own death experience in Hebrews 9:27-28. That’s the very reason for the specific “AS…SO” comparison in those two verses.

      The only reason I belabor this point is to refute the common misunderstanding of what the I Thess. 4 rapture was going to entail. Paul never said that people were going to be translated without dying, and then raptured off the earth. Nobody gets off this planet alive without dying the one time first. No mass translation of the saints happened in AD 70 at Christ’s second coming, and neither will it happen that way in the future with Christ’s final third return.

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