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"Appointed unto men ONCE to die" contradicts the rapture's "translation" myth

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  • Please stop using eisegesis...
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

    Comment


    • What appears to be "eisegesis" to you, Christianbookworm, is my simply trying to look at things through the "eyes of Jesus".

      Eight years ago when I began a program of studying this scripture topic in deadly earnest, I started begging God in prayer, "Please, don't let me fall into anything that is a lie. Feed me nothing but the truth and I will follow you wherever you lead. Don't let me maintain a single thought about your book that would lean unto my own understanding." I continue to this day to keep praying this over every post I submit. What more can I do?

      I was raised by strong pre-mil dispensationalist teachers in both school and at home. I was very young when I first opened my father's Larkin book of end-time charts and immediately became fascinated with the subject. I adopted the whole "rapture" scenario as taught and was constantly expecting that at any day, the Christians could get caught up to heaven and leave a fallen world to disintegrate into madness without their influence. So obsessed did I become with the whole "rapture" theme that it leaked into my dreams and gave me nightmares.

      I remember one time being left in the car alone outside the Sears store one Christmas when my mom went inside to do all the Christmas shopping. I must have been about 11 years old. It was so many hours that I sat by myself, that I decided my mom must have been raptured and that I was "left behind" because I wasn't really saved to begin with, even though I had already made a confession of faith. I desperately dug through the glove box to read some of the tracts I knew my mom had stored there, and thought I must not have used the right words to become a Christian earlier. So in the car I prayed again for Jesus to be my Savior, even though it might be too late for me if the "rapture" had already happened. And I was panicked that somehow I would have to walk the many miles back home by myself to an empty house with no saved parents in it anymore to take care of me.

      I wouldn't wish this kind of traumatized, tormented thinking on ANY young child - or adult - who is taught the usual end-times of the pre-mil-dispensational beliefs. And it's a useless trauma, because Christ never taught this exact scenario to begin with. If I had known then what I now see Christ saying about His AD 70 rapture and return, then as a young believer, I could have had a MUCH more serene, confident faith in a God who keeps His promises to the letter. And at the exact time framework that He had written for them to be fulfilled. You couldn't pay me enough to abandon the peace that God has given me about these subjects now.

      Comment


      • Where's the verse saying there will be a third resurrection? There's the resurrection of the saved and the resurrection of the condemned. That sums up everyone. Now, whether a-, pre-, or post- millennium, that can wait to be dtermined. Orthodox preterism, historicism, futurism, or idealism have nothing to do with salvation. These things are concerning secondary issues. Heretical hyperpreterism on the other hand denies the bodily resurrection and the new creation. We are NOT in the new Universe yet. There is still death, disease, suffering, and evil in general. Did you forget the horrors of the 20th century?
        If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

        Comment


        • These verses about a third resurrection in our future I believe I have already submitted earlier here in this thread. Quite possibly you missed seeing them in the number of back-and-forth exchanges. But I can submit them again if you need me to. Although you might very well dismiss them as eisegesis again, since they don't fit with what you are expecting to see.

          However, we are definitely united in seeing that everyone born into this world will experience a judgment from God. That will result in either a total destruction of body, soul, and spirit in the case of the wicked, or of eternal life in God's presence in the case of the children of faith. It does indeed "sum up everyone", as you have said. The only distinction between you and me about this judgment would be that I see scripture dividing this judgment process into more than just one occasion at the close of fallen man's history on this planet.

          You spoke of the "horrors of the 20th century". I am not denying these, nor the continued existence of evil, death, disease, and suffering. But these conditions exist in the PRESENT NHNE conditions in the same way that Revelation 22:15 lists all those evil things existing just outside the gates of the city New Jerusalem. Outside our present New Covenant reality of the New Jerusalem, there are still "dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." Christ is now ruling, even in the MIDST of His still-existing enemies, because we carry His reigning Spirit within us as we live in the midst of His enemies in this present world.

          It's a current NEW earth and NEW heavens because Satan and his angels and unclean spirits are no longer in them anymore. Any present wickedness comes from the "CHILDREN of the devil", and not their Father of lies, who does not exist anymore since AD 70. The "powers of the heavens" were shaken back then (Luke 21:26), and being "shaken", were consequently "removed" (Hebrews 12:27). If we add to the wickedness coming from the "children of the devil" the saints' own human tendency for their hearts to deceive themselves, then there is more than enough explanation for any present evil expressed on earth. Death and suffering of the body still takes place because, as the Hebrews 9:27 verse shows us, we are all "appointed" to die the one time - even saints. If that were not true, then God would be a liar when He says, "And so death passed upon ALL men, for that all have sinned". Fortunately, that is not the end of the story for God's children.

          I believe God has given the world this current phase of a Satan-free condition since AD 70 to prove to us that human wickedness is JUST AS VILE AND PREVALENT as when there was a Devil and his angels around to instigate it. This should be humbling for us, and drive us to our knees before the Father.


          Comment


          • Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
            Hi again Darfius,

            I've got just a short window of time before I have to go dig some footings to do a set of piers, but I'll try to address most of what you presented in your last comment #120.

            The "double fulfillment" concept you have brought up is one that we have a few examples of in scripture (such as the case with "out of Egypt have I called my son", and "smite the shepherd(s) and the sheep shall be scattered", and "they shall look upon Me whom they pierced", etc.) So I don't deny that this kind of recapitulation pattern has occurred before in prophecy (and might possibly re-occur). However, there are some certain prophetic conditions which cannot possibly be repeated. The crucifixion of Christ for one. The destruction of the Jerusalem temple down to the last stone being another. The launching of the New Covenant in AD 33, and the death of the Old Covenant. AND the eradication of the Satanic / demonic realm for all time.
            There was a covenant for the Law. There was a covenant for Grace. Won't there be another covenant when Law and Grace are finally fulfilled in Love and the overcomers join their King on Mt. Zion? Of course. No evidence that the gates of hell have been overcome on earth yet. You keep assuming your theory to prove your theory. That's eisegesis. Try this: if you can't present evidence without reference to your theory, admit that you have no evidence.

            I'm not asking you to just take my word for it on faith, that Satan and his angelic hosts no longer exist since AD 70. If common perceptions today (even so-called "data") presume that Satan is still around in some capacity or another, that is making a presumption which contradicts scripture's fate that was decreed for Satan and his angels' total destruction long ago. And which was a destructive event that was also "AT HAND" for John's first-century audience. I don't present this with any need for feeling "special" somehow. I just want to remain faithful to the time-relevant evidence that scripture gives to us. Wherever that might lead. I have studied several years on this subject alone before I ever started posting with the evidence for Satan's destruction from scripture. Since "there is nothing new under the sun", then others besides me have also noticed these same verses and come to the same conclusions. Just because you have not encountered these others yet, does not mean that they don't exist. If you wish a separate post with scripture proof of Satan's biography and his AD 70 destruction, perhaps that might be a better way to go than to include that in this post's theme where it could get lost in the shuffle .
            The "time relevant" evidence pertained to a partial fulfillment in the first century. The "global chaos" elements that you "spiritualize" away pertain to the soon end-times fulfillment. Why do you take time literally and handwave space away? It's not because you are "following God's Spirit where He leads". God's Spirit doesn't lead to bald faced contradictions.

            And yes, I want you to prove Satan was destroyed in 70 AD without assuming your theory is true. That is, appeal to evidence outside of your theory to prove your theory. That is, when you try to present a verse, ask yourself, "is it possible this could be true without my theory needing to be true?" If yes, then choose something better.

            You asked "Was there any outward indication that Satan had been bound when you claim he was?"

            Answer: Yes, there is OT proof of Satan's binding back in Solomon's days, as found in Psalms 72, particularly in the LXX. This was the very last Psalm by King David, written with its title dedication "For Solomon", with prophecy about his son Solomon's reign. An aging King David wrote of Solomon, "O God, give thy judgment to the king, and thy righteousness to the king's son; that he may judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment. Let the mountains and the hills raise peace to thy people: he shall judge the poor of the people in righteousness, and save the children of the needy; AND SHALL BRING LOW THE FALSE ACCUSER...in his days shall righteousness spring up; and abundance of peace till the moon be removed."

            This "FALSE ACCUSER" that Solomon would "BRING LOW" was none other than Satan (the "accuser of the brethren" in Rev. 12:10) being chained and restricted during the coming reign of King Solomon, whom God had earlier prophesied before his birth would be called a "Man of rest" (I Chron. 22:9 - Solomon meaning "Peaceable"). This is some of that "double fulfillment language you spoke of, Darfius, that also would ultimately refer to Christ. Solomon's laying down the foundation stone of the temple God planned for him to build was in the year 968/967 BC when the literal thousand years of the Rev. 20 millennium was launched. From Solomon's temple foundation stone being laid and forward, the nations' knowledge about the God of Israel increased exponentially compared to the prior "times of this ignorance", especially under the soon-coming surge of prophetic ministry by the increased number of major and minor prophets. If Psalms 119:130 said that "The entrance of thy words giveth light", then every time a prophet opened his mouth and said "Thus saith the Lord God...", Satan's forces of darkness were beaten back further by God's words being broadcast among the nations. By these means, Satan's deception of the nations (which kept them ignorant of the God of Israel) was chained during the millennium from 968/967 BC until AD 33.
            Here is the insane "spiritualizing" you introduce when you really need to reach. No explicit mention of the devil, but he is this "false accuser." No explicit mention anywhere in the OT that he had been bound, but because you assume your theory is true, you expect us all to assume it. Your "evidence" is not convincing to those of us who do not have the same vested interest you do in your theory being true. The "false accuser" could be literally anyone. And if Israel itself succumbed to darkness to the point where they were scattered to the four winds, in what possible way was darkness "beaten back"? This is pure sophistry and delusion.

            Satan finally lost his ability to "accuse the brethren" in heaven's court in AD 33, when Christ had ascended and brought His blood sacrifice to sprinkle on heaven's mercy seat. This "made an end of sins" by providing the once-for-all sacrifice needed for purging the guilt of men's sins. Until that sacrifice had been officially offered in heaven in real time, Satan still had grounds to accuse the brethren of sin-guilt. But not after Christ had first ascended. This new, heavenly reality of Christ's high priesthood ordination at His ascension was the deciding factor which cast Satan and his angels out of heaven's environment (Rev. 12:9) from AD 33 onward. This was totally separate from Satan's ability to deceive men on earth for that "short time" and "little season" after the millennium ended. The elect were not deceived, but the wicked were.
            Where does the Bible say Satan is no longer able to accuse us, outside of the very text under dispute (Rev 12)? Yet again you are assuming your theory to prove your theory. I say he is still able to accuse us because Rev 12 is future and you say it is past. What outside evidence can you present to show it is past, apart from your theory?

            When I wrote of "elevating Christ's victory over death" as being the "First-born" of the" First-fruits", I was magnifying the supreme importance of the "FIRST RESURRECTION" in AD 33. I wasn't referring to the second resurrection in AD 70. This "FIRST resurrection" is what dates the ending point of the millennium. It was the time when "the remnant of the dead" came to life again AFTER the millennium was finished - "THIS" event WAS the "First resurrection". Meaning the Rev. 20 millennium MUST have been finished and expired with the advent of Christ's "FIRST resurrection" in AD 33. Satan's release on earth was indeed "future" after that crucifixion event, but not necessarily a release future to US.
            What evidence do you have that the Matthew 24 saints were given glorified bodies rather than just brought back to mortal life? And why would "the first resurrection" be local to Jerusalem?

            As to the points you are making about Jonah dying in the belly of the great fish and then being resurrected, only to die again later, Psalms 6:5 contradicts the case you are making. David says, "For in death there is NO REMEMBRANCE OF THEE: in the grave WHO SHALLL GIVE THEE THANKS?" In contrast to this, Jonah says in Jonah 2:7 and 9 that, "When my soul fainted within me, I REMEMBERED THE LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple...But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of THANKSGIVING..." If Psalms 6:5 is true, then how could Jonah "remember the Lord" and give "thanksgiving" if he had already died? Why even would a spirit be complaining about "weeds wrapped around my head", and say that "the billows and thy waves passed over me"? Moreover, after Jonah had witnessed to Ninevah, his angry, vengeful spirit that resented the spirit of repentance in Ninevah is not the righteous reaction of a perfected, glorified and resurrected saint. You may not believe it is so, Darfius, but in the final "perfected" state of soul, spirit, and body, the saints have no sinful impulses or sinful actions ever again. Just like the 144,000 "First-fruits" saints (the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints) had "no guile in their mouth", and were "without fault before the throne of God". If God had to reprove Jonah for his sinful attitude, then he had not experienced the resurrected state yet.
            Why are we debating this? The text says Jonah prayed from the realm of the dead. Whatever David meant, he did not mean a complete lack of consciousness, since he said he would "go to" his dead son and the dead "being gathered to their fathers" is a common phrase in the OT. Not to mention Jesus' parable of Lazarus and the rich man in the abode of the dead with very real consciousnesses.

            I agree that when we are perfect, we will no longer sin. I just don't agree that being given a body that can enter into higher dimensions will make us perfect. Nor can you provide a verse that says it will.

            Comment


            • Hi Darfius,

              Sorry for getting back this late to your comment - workroom drapery orders and gutter cleaning were pressing this last week.

              As for your first comment that there is "no evidence that the gates of hell have been overcome on earth yet." I think you must be passing over the description of the glorified Christ in Revelation 1:18, when He said that "I am he that liveth and was dead; and behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and HAVE THE KEYS OF HELL AND OF DEATH." If Christ back then already had the "keys" of Hell (Hades - the grave) and death, this was proof positive that our Savior Jesus Christ "HATH ABOLISHED DEATH" (past tense), "and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." (II Tim. 1:10). In real time, all the saints would also eventually share in this same abolishing of death that was promised for their own physical bodies. This would occur in stages - not all at once at the end of fallen man's history on the planet. In one sense, I agree; the time relevant evidence DID pertain to a "partial fulfillment" in that first-century generation for believers who had died up until then. It was fulfilled when they were resurrected and raptured to heaven in AD 70. The remaining fulfillment will be realized in our own case in the future at the last, third resurrection event.

              But I am NOT disregarding the "GLOBAL chaos" that was predicted and took place in those first-century days. Far from "spiritualizing" these away, I recognize that Christ had promised catastrophes that would be occurring in "divers places", which was more than just Judea and Jerusalem being affected. Signs would take place, causing men's hearts to fail them for fear and for looking after those things which were coming on the habitable earth (oikoumene - not just the land of Judea). This would then be followed by Christ's return in power and great glory. These signs in the whole habitable world were ALSO included in the entire list of events that Jesus said were ALL "ABOUT TO COME TO PASS" (Luke 21:36) back in those days. If you know your first-century historical records, you can recognize when every one of Christ's predicted list of chaotic conditions occurred before AD70's end, even down to "the sea and the waves roaring".

              As far as Satan having the Rev. 12:10 title of the "accuser of the brethren", he was earning that title even back in Job's days, when he made false accusations in heaven against Job's motives for his faithfulness to God. This "false accuser" title in Psalm 72 that Solomon would "bring low" at the beginning of the millennium in 968/967 BC would have been a term familiar to Solomon's generation as being linked with Satan, the one who falsely accused Job.

              You may think that Revelation 12 is all future, Darfius, but the text proves otherwise. The "man-child" who had already ascended to His Father's throne (after His AD 33 resurrection) was "ABOUT TO RULE ALL NATIONS WITH A ROD OF IRON." That was going to be SOON for John's readers when the ascended, enthroned Christ would do so - not a delayed fulfillment for our future. When that great voice in heaven proclaimed in Rev. 12:10, "*NOW* is come SALVATION, and strength, and the KINGDOM OF OUR GOD, and the POWER of his Christ...", it was spoken just after Christ's finished cross-work and His resurrection when He was given His kingdom's crown of the high priesthood in heaven. Didn't Hebrews 12:28 already say, "...We RECEIVING A KINGDOM..." as an already-established fact back in those days? Ephesians 1:19-20 already spoke about "the exceeding greatness of his POWER to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty POWER, which he wrought in Christ when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in the coming one:" That little word "NOW" in Rev. 12:10 dates when that Revelation 12 scene took place, and it was simultaneous with the AD 33 post-resurrection enthronement of Christ in heaven.

              As for the millennium conditions existing from AD 968/967 BC until AD 33, you are making a very natural objection, Darfius, that I have often heard before. The breakup of the nation of Judah and the tribes being driven into captivity in many nations was NOT a deterrent to the millennium conditions limiting Satan's deception of the nations. Actually, the various dispersions of God's captive people was CONDUCIVE to spreading the knowledge of the God of Israel throughout the nations of the known world. Even a little nameless Hebrew maid in Naaman the Syrian captain's home did her part to spread the word about Her God. She said to her mistress, "Would God my lord were with the prophet in Samaria! For he would recover him of his leprosy." We know the result of that cure of Naaman the leper, who had great influence in the Syrian king's court. An altar built upon dirt coming from Elisha's property was set up by Naaman, who confessed, "Now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel."

              The same thing occurred with Daniel who was one of the first group deportations from Jerusalem to be taken to Nebuchadnezzar's court. This "greatly beloved" prophet served honorably in both Nebuchadnezzar's reign and in that of Darius. Due to their encounters with Daniel, both of these kings gave a WORLD-WIDE proclamation, sent into all of their domain in every language, saying that none but the God of Israel was worthy of worship.

              Even the hedonism that Solomon eventually descended into with his thousand wives and concubines - the diplomatic channels that brought them all to King Solomon's court exposed everyone of their various nations to the knowledge about the God of Israel, thus limiting Satan's deception of the nations further. Remember, it was not necessary for the growing knowledge about the God of Israel to result in mass conversions during the millennium. Just that Satan's deceptive ignorance about Him was being curtailed among the nations.

              You asked about how to prove the Matthew 27:52-53 saints had received glorified bodies, and were not just brought back to a mortal life. I covered this point with Christianbookworm already a few comments back. Those Matthew 27:52-53 were the 144,000 "First-fruits" mentioned in Revelation 7 and 14. Those 144,000 shared the same title of the "First-fruits" (aparche) along with "Christ the First-fruits" (aparche), because they all shared the same event of the "First resurrection". And if you read what is written about those 144,000 First-fruits, they are "without fault before the throne of God", and "in their mouth is found no guile". Moreover, they are called "virgins" because there is no marriage or giving in marriage as the "children of the resurrection". And their bodies were "redeemed from the earth" (tes ges - the land of Israel) by their being bodily-resurrected out of those graves around Jerusalem in the land of Israel. This description of "faultless" saints could only be true of those who had been glorified and given incorruptibility.

              These Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints were also the same as "the spirits of just men MADE PERFECT" in Hebrews 12:23. They were "the assembly of the FIRST-BORN", who were "enrolled in heaven", but who had not yet arrived there bodily yet. This "perfected" status of the Matthew 27 resurrected saints was the same as Jesus who was "MADE PERFECT" in his resurrected, glorified form in Hebrews 5:9.

              That "First resurrection" of Christ and the Matthew 27 saints was local to Jerusalem because that is where the early church originated from, and spread out from there. As Jesus told the disciples in Acts 1:8, "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in JERUSALEM" (to start with), "and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

              As for Jonah supposedly "praying from the realm of the dead" as you are proposing, this is exactly the same language that King David used in Psalm 18:4-5; "The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid. The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me." All while King David was still alive on this earth. Meaning that Jonah's prayer about death could also be made while he was still alive in the belly of the fish.

              If you want to see evidence that Satan was destroyed in AD 70, that will probably need to go into a post devoted to that theme by itself. I don't mind covering the subject with the relevant scripture proof, but this comment is already long enough as it is.


              Oh, and for Christianbookworm, the list of verses about the third coming of Christ I entered back in comment #75, if you are still interested.
              Last edited by 3 Resurrections; 04-11-2021, 10:38 PM.

              Comment


              • I'm not ignoring you, 3 Revelations, it's just difficult to find the motivation to keep interacting with you on this subject because no amount of reasoning with you appears to be able to awaken you to your eisegesis which is blatant to everyone else. I think our relative cases have been made thus far and we can let the future determine who is really following God's lead.

                Comment


                • Pretty bad when the conspiracy nut yas better sense...
                  If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                  Comment


                  • Hi Darfius,

                    I take it you are the one being referred to as "the conspiracy nut", so maybe there will be a nickname that will be dreamed up for me as well. All any of us can do is to present what we believe to be true. We are all "playing to the gallery", in a manner of speaking. I don't really expect anyone to offer much support, especially when I know this goes against the grain of the status quo. The Full Preterist site I once used to post on didn't express much agreement either. But if there is truth in what I say from scripture, God will take His words and send them where He wants them to go. If there isn't any truth in what I'm saying, then it will come to nothing, just like Gamaliel once said long ago in Acts 5.

                    Darfius, the only reason I have belabored some of these points above is to lay some of the groundwork for the post I promised to write at your request about "How many ages are there in scripture?". If one cannot correctly identify and locate the central focus of Christ and the "First resurrection" event on the timeline, then describing how scripture divides up the ages of human history will make no sense.

                    As for the original point of this post, I am surprised that no one can recognize this verse's one-time requirement AND one-time limit for our physical death. The Hebrews 9:27-28 verses are a simile that directly connects CHRIST'S one-time death by crucifixion to OUR one-time death. Whenever a sentence has an "AS / SO" structure, this involves more than simply comparing two similar things; it is presenting a mirror-image of two things that are exactly alike. "And *AS* it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment, *SO* Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many..." It is a twisting of the English sentence structure to interpret this differently and to teach a translation-type change for believers who have not died yet, or to teach multiple deaths for a single person.

                    It has been suggested that Hebrews 9:27 should read something like this... "And as it is appointed unto men usually to die AT LEAST ONCE, but after this the judgment..." To be consistent, the mirror-image "AS / SO" simile should then finish by reading something like this..."So Christ was offered AT LEAST ONCE to bear the sins of many..." And we know scripture tells us in Romans 6:9 that it isn't even remotely possible for Christ to die another time after His resurrection. Therefore, it isn't even remotely possible for us to die another time after our resurrection. AS His resurrection was, SO is ours to be. Neither is it even remotely possible for us to escape this one-time death requirement that has "passed upon all men", just as it was impossible for God's pre-determined death's cup to pass by the Savior without Him drinking it.

                    Last edited by 3 Resurrections; 04-14-2021, 11:42 PM.

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