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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


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No births or population growth in the next age?

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  • No births or population growth in the next age?

    Personally, I've always believed that in the next age, God would just start all over again from Genesis 1. Populations (outside of those who have been redeemed through Christ in the present now) would continue to exist and grow as they do in this age; that they would even expand throughout the universe in other galaxies (which explains to me all that vast empty space God created), only under greatly different circumstances (i.e. no supernatural evil influence, different governing bodies, different rules, etc.), and that we would be ruling and reigning over these populations with Christ. I admit this is a bit more theoretical than I can directly prove from scripture, but there is some support for this. I get this impression from the descriptions in Rev 21, and from other more subtle passages scattered here and there, such as Isaiah 9:7 -- "There will be no end to the increase of his government."

    The following passage stood out to me, thus I thought I'd post it here (not picking on you mossy, just thought it was an interesting subject)...

    Originally posted by mossrose View Post
    There will come a time when no more humans will be born. When we all enter eternity at the end of recorded time.
    I'm guessing this is influenced by Jesus saying there will be no marriage in heaven. But to me, that's a very vague passage, open to various interpretation. Is there anywhere else in scripture that states births will cease or that we will be alone in the universe for all eternity? And I'm wondering how many Christians hold this view?
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  • #2
    Well, my view of eschatology has a great deal to do with that statement.

    I am unapologetically a futurist, and I believe that there will be a rapture of believers, a 7 year tribulation, the return of Christ as King at the end of the tribulation, and then we will enter into the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. During that time, there will be births and deaths.

    At the end of the millenium, Satan will be released for a time to lead a short rebellion, then the Great White Throne judgment will be held.

    THEN we enter into eternity, and there will be no more births or deaths, since everyone alive at the end of Satan's final rebellion will enter into eternity.

    That's it in a nutshell, and that's what I was referring to in that post.



    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by seanD View Post
      I'm guessing this is influenced by Jesus saying there will be no marriage in heaven. But to me, that's a very vague passage, open to various interpretation. Is there anywhere else in scripture that states births will cease or that we will be alone in the universe for all eternity? And I'm wondering how many Christians hold this view?
      Marriage is described as a man and woman becoming one flesh (=intercourse). No marriage, no intercourse. No intercourse, no babies.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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      • #4
        Originally posted by seanD View Post
        . . . I'm guessing this is influenced by Jesus saying there will be no marriage in heaven. But to me, that's a very vague passage, open to various interpretation. Is there anywhere else in scripture that states births will cease or that we will be alone in the universe for all eternity? And I'm wondering how many Christians hold this view?
        As to births in the new creation, I am with moss. The passage of "no marriage in heaven" does not seem vague to me at all.

        My real purpose in this post is to firmly state that we will not "be alone in the universe for all eternity." A finite population does not suggest that, ant the fact is we will be with Christ and all the Christians in paradise. Nothing lonely about it.
        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          Marriage is described as a man and woman becoming one flesh (=intercourse). No marriage, no intercourse. No intercourse, no babies.
          There are two arguments to counter this though, which is why I was wondering if there are any other passages. The first argument is a simple one. Jesus was referring to the redeemed in the here and now (or elect) and their purpose throughout eternity, but that he wasn't referring to other populations that will exist throughout eternity (the ones that will presumably need the Tree of Life in Rev 21).

          Another argument is a whole lot more complicated and I'm reluctant to get into it. It goes like this: Jesus wasn't necessarily referring to sexual union in general, but marriage specifically under the Mosaic law. In fact, there was nothing about sexual union specifically in the question posed to him. The context of the question was this: which husband will the woman be married to in the next life according to the Mosaic law. This was a problem because the Mosaic law didn't make accommodations for the spouse that had passed away and then resurrected later. Jesus was specifically saying she won't be obligated to any man in marriage under the Mosaic law because the law was made null and void at death, thus the angels are not obligated to the Mosaic law and neither will we be because this particular law has no weight in the next life.
          Last edited by seanD; 07-20-2016, 10:13 PM.
          "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

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          • #6
            Originally posted by seanD View Post
            There are two arguments to counter this though, which is why I was wondering if there are any other passages. The first argument is a simple one. Jesus was referring to the redeemed in the here and now (or elect) and their purpose throughout eternity, but that he wasn't referring to other populations that will exist throughout eternity (the ones that will presumably need the Tree of Life in Rev 21).
            There are only two populations that will exist throughout eternity; the saved and the damned.
            Another argument is a whole lot more complicated and I'm reluctant to get into it. It goes like this: Jesus wasn't necessarily referring to sexual union in general, but marriage specifically under the Mosaic law. In fact, there was nothing about sexual union specifically in the question posed to him. The context of the question was this: which husband will the woman be married to in the next life according to the Mosaic law. This was a problem because the Mosaic law didn't make accommodations for the spouse that had passed away and then resurrected later. Jesus was specifically saying she won't be obligated to any man in marriage under the Mosaic law because the law was made null and void at death, thus the angels are not obligated to the Mosaic law and neither will we be because this particular law has no weight in the next life.
            Angels never were obligated to the Mosaic law. Marriage is universal; it is broader in scope than the Mosaic law. Jesus in no way indicates that his answer is restricted to the narrow problem at hand (levirate marriage and the resurrection); he is saying that the Sadducees' question is irrelevant because of his broader point about the lack of marriage in toto after the resurrection.
            Last edited by One Bad Pig; 07-21-2016, 09:20 AM.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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            • #7
              You can't have increasing population growth for eternity. It just isn't logistically feasable. And unless you want to posit asexual reproduction, no marriage means no sexual reproduction.
              Last edited by Christianbookworm; 07-21-2016, 09:49 AM.
              If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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              • #8
                If the reason we are not just created saved in heaven already is so we can choose to follow God and be saved or not, before the resurrection, then how can there be babies in the resurrection? Would they be born saved and never sin? If so, then why didn't God just do that in the first place instead of creating the world we are in now. If not, how can heaven be sinless if the new babies can still choose to sin?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by seanD View Post
                  . . . Jesus was referring to the redeemed in the here and now (or elect) and their purpose throughout eternity, but that he wasn't referring to other populations that will exist throughout eternity (the ones that will presumably need the Tree of Life in Rev 21). . .
                  Where do you find any reason to expect these "other populations?" I see no such thing in scripture.
                  Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                    Where do you find any reason to expect these "other populations?" I see no such thing in scripture.
                    What would be your explanation of the vast amount of galaxies (I believe the number is something like a hundred billion?) and exoplanets in the universe if population earth was all there is and all there ever would be?
                    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by seanD View Post
                      What would be your explanation of the vast amount of galaxies (I believe the number is something like a hundred billion?) and exoplanets in the universe if population earth was all there is and all there ever would be?
                      To show God's creative power? For His enjoyment and ours?

                      Specifically to glorify Him.


                      Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                        To show God's creative power? For His enjoyment and ours?

                        Specifically to glorify Him.
                        Fair enough.
                        "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by seanD View Post
                          What would be your explanation of the vast amount of galaxies (I believe the number is something like a hundred billion?) and exoplanets in the universe if population earth was all there is and all there ever would be?
                          If you know a little about the physics involved you will understand that the constants that make the universe inhabitable require the universe to be the size it is. Would one of our experts explain this for seanD, I do not have the expertise to explain it.
                          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                            If you know a little about the physics involved you will understand that the constants that make the universe inhabitable require the universe to be the size it is. Would one of our experts explain this for seanD, I do not have the expertise to explain it.
                            Nah, I gotcha. The vastness of the universe is a necessity for it being finely tuned that it is, which is necessary for it's inhabitability.
                            "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

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                            • #15
                              could there be other people on other planets?

                              Or heck, since we will live FOREVER, it is nice to have a really big place to explore. I plan on building a starship and go exploring for a few billion years.

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