Announcement

Collapse

Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

until ...

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • until ...

    Jerusalem will be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled ...
    (Luke 21:24)
    Can we ponder the little word, "until" for a while ... It is an interesting word isnt it? Ive often wondered if Preterists have it in their dictionary.

    "until" hmmmm

    Can someone tell us if this "until" has already happened ...?

    Can someone tell us what happens ... after this "until" is fulfilled ...?
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

  • #2
    Until I wake up, I am asleep. Until I remember, I have forgotten.

    Something like this?
    For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

    Comment


    • #3
      Never heard of it.
      The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

      sigpic

      Comment


      • #4
        "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

        No idea what you're referring to.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • #5
          What is funny is that this very day I was editing the part of my commentary that dealt with that Lukan passage.

          Piggo he is referring to Luke 21
          The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

          sigpic

          Comment


          • #6
            So Twebbers, when Jesus said, "Jerusalem will be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled ..." has the "trampling" been trampled and "the times" become history yet?
            "Your name and renown
            is the desire of our hearts."
            (Isaiah 26:8)

            Comment


            • #7
              <Steve Gregg>Read my book</Steve Gregg>

              Yes.
              The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

              sigpic

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Ged View Post
                So Twebbers, when Jesus said, "Jerusalem will be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled ..." has the "trampling" been trampled and "the times" become history yet?
                If the trampling of Jerusalem in Luke 21:24 = the trampling of the Holy City in Revelation 11:2, then the times of the Gentiles in the former text may correspond to the forty two months in the latter text.

                In which case the answer to your question would be 'Yes'.
                Last edited by John Reece; 02-26-2014, 02:33 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Greetings Ged,
                  Originally posted by Ged View Post
                  Can we ponder the little word, "until" for a while ... It is an interesting word isnt it? Ive often wondered if Preterists have it in their dictionary.

                  "until" hmmmm

                  Can someone tell us if this "until" has already happened ...?

                  Can someone tell us what happens ... after this "until" is fulfilled ...?
                  In order to answer your question please note that Jesus appears to be alluding to or quoting Daniel 8:13-14.

                  Jesus appears to be alluding to Daniel 8 when he says:
                  Luke 21:24 (KJV): "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
                  Compare the similarity of the language:
                  Daniel 8:13 (KJV): "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?"
                  The next verse then details a period of time during which the sanctuary or Jerusalem would be trodden down.
                  Daniel 8:14 (KJV): "And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

                  One major fulfilment of the 2300 days could be from the major event in the vision of Daniel 8 the overthrow of the Ram by the He-Goat. "The Anchor Atlas of World History" states that Alexander defeated the Persians at Granicus in May BC 334, and at Issus in Nov BC 333. Add 2300 years to this and we arrive at 1967, the Six-Day War, when Jerusalem was once again brought under the control of the Jews.

                  The events of 1967 are an essential step to set the stage for further events prophesied, for example Zechariah 14, resulting in the complete cleansing of Jerusalem. The important vision of Isaiah 2 clearly depicts this outcome:
                  Isaiah 2:1-4 (KJV): "1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

                  The power that God has over the elements, revealed recently in drought, fire, flood, storm and earthquake, and the shaking of the nations in the Middle East witness that the times of the Gentiles are drawing to conclusion. The political and religious rulers are antagonistic to the Jewish occupation of East Jerusalem and ignore the prophecy of Daniel 8 and the words of Jesus in Luke 21 and the testimony of the prophets.

                  Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God who is seated at the right hand of God the Father is soon to return and bring the times of refreshing and restoration of all things spoken by the prophets. He will replace the kingdoms of men with his righteous rule, when he sits upon the throne of David in Jerusalem ruling over the house of Jacob and over the nations Psalm 8, Psalm 72, Jeremiah 3:17, Daniel 2:44, Matthew 5:34-35, Matthew 19:28, Luke 1:30-33.
                  Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): "19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

                  Kind regards
                  Trevor
                  Last edited by TrevorL; 02-28-2014, 11:51 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Soon eh? How long was it to be soon? You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
                    The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Greetings Dee Dee,
                      Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
                      Soon eh? How long was it to be soon? You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
                      I appreciate your response but the Scriptures seem to indicate that events are hastening to the predetermined end and it is necessary to take heed to the counsel and warnings of the prophets. Jesus also speaks of the attitude of the faithful at the time of His coming:
                      Luke 12:35-40 (KJV): 35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; 36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. 37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. 39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. 40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

                      Kind regards
                      Trevor

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
                        Soon eh? How long was it to be soon? You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
                        Dee Dee: Your quote above prompted me to start a new thread in the Biblical Languages forum titled ἃ δεῖ γενέσθαι ἐν τάχει. See what you think of it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TrevorL View Post
                          Greetings Dee Dee,
                          I appreciate your response but the Scriptures seem to indicate that events are hastening to the predetermined end and it is necessary to take heed to the counsel and warnings of the prophets. Jesus also speaks of the attitude of the faithful at the time of His coming:
                          Luke 12:35-40 (KJV): 35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; 36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. 37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. 39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. 40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

                          Kind regards
                          Trevor
                          No the Scriptures indicated that was something was to happen soon. To them.
                          The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

                          sigpic

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Greetings again Dee Dee,

                            Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
                            No the Scriptures indicated that was something was to happen soon. To them.
                            I agree that the first Century Apostles and Disciples experienced dramatic events in their lifetime, especially the events of AD70. I believe that these things are also a pattern and for the guidance of our generation as things build up towards the events surrounding the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ when he will intervene in the nations and establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth.

                            Kind regards
                            Trevor

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I was disappointed that no one gave a thorough response to my Post #9 regarding the connection between Daniel 8 and Luke 21. Does anyone reading this thread agree with this connection? I am also interested in Daniel 11:40-45 that speaks concerning “the king of the north” “at the time of the end”. This portion of Daniel 11 seems to connect with the last part of Daniel 8. Our community has looked at the Russian power as the latter day king of the north and its gradual steps in Georgia and now in Crimea may signal that the time for the invasion from the north depicted in Daniel 11 and Ezekiel 38 and Zechariah 14 is “soon”. It has certainly stirred up interest in our community.

                              Kind regards
                              Trevor
                              Last edited by TrevorL; 03-05-2014, 11:27 PM.

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by seanD, 03-26-2020, 12:05 PM
                              44 responses
                              4,941 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post eschaton  
                              Started by KingsGambit, 07-29-2018, 07:36 PM
                              73 responses
                              13,109 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post eschaton  
                              Started by hamster, 07-05-2015, 01:07 PM
                              116 responses
                              31,418 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post ReformedApologist  
                              Started by seanD, 02-05-2014, 03:15 PM
                              42 responses
                              9,462 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post seanD
                              by seanD
                               
                              Working...
                              X