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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

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Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

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Day of the Lord -- Millennium

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  • Day of the Lord -- Millennium

    2 Peter 3:7-8
    But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


    People typically interpret this passage to justify a belief that all prophecy is long into the future. But could this passage not simply teach that the "day of the Lord" is something other than a single day, and is actually the same thousand years mentioned in Revelation?

    2 Peter 3:9
    The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


    This verse offers no problems. God lets the millennium last a long while so the whole earth can come to repentance. The only key objection that I can think of might come from the next verse:

    2 Peter 3:10-12
    But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. . . . the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


    It might be argued, how could an entire thousand years come suddenly and silently as a "thief in the night"? The simple answer is that the day of the Lord starts without warning, as a thief. But the entire heavens and earth do not get dissolved instantly. They are "dissolved" (figurative language) over the entire "day" (millennium). The "fire" that dissolves them refers to God's expanding judgment and empire.

    Matthew 3:11
    I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:


    It is possible that there are multiple passages which support this interpretation of a "day" being the millennium. But one in particular occurred to me:

    Hebrews 4:7-9
    Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if [Joshua] had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.


    Basically, when Hebrews was written, there still remained another "day" in which all sacrifices would cease.

    Also, there is another passage where Christians are called "children of the day."

    1 Thessalonians 5:2-5
    For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.


    Finally, it is interesting that Jesus describes both a "day" and an "hour" when discussing his return.

    Matthew 24:34-42
    Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. . . . Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


    Assuming that the heaven and earth did not entirely pass away in 70 A.D., "all these things be[ing] fulfilled" could refer to all the verses prior to verse 34. That is, the entire heaven and earth did not necessarily pass away during Jesus's generation. But the other things, such as the "sign of the son of man in heaven" (v. 30), occurred. Notably, the Lord comes in an "hour" (to destroy Jerusalem). But arguably, he takes an entire day to burn the old heavens and earth.

    At the same time when Jerusalem was destroyed by the seven angels, the gentile world (the sea) would also be set on fire. The glass refers to the saved gentiles. The fire refers to the judgment on the wicked gentiles.

    Revelation 15:1-2
    And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.


    At the end of the millennium, there is no more fire, and there are also no more gentiles. This final elimination of the gentiles (the sea) is linked with the arrival of the new heavens and new earth.

    Revelation 21:1
    And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


    One useful point about this entire interpretation is that it eliminates the Hyperpreterist's ability to link the "day of the Lord" (assumed to be the elimination of the temple sacrifices) with the complete elimination of the old heavens and earth. At best, the heavens and earth were in the process of being burned. But for God, a day lasts longer than 24 hours.

    Once the day (millennium) is over and the heavens are burned, then dead saints like Job will see God in the flesh.

    Job 14:12-14
    So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.


    This resurrection, which is set to occur at the end of the millennium (day), also occurs when God sets foot on earth.

    Job 19:25-27
    For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth. And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God. Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.


    Arguably, setting foot on the earth refers to the descent of New Jerusalem from heaven to earth. Obviously, the city contains the Lamb inside it during its descent.

    Revelation 21:2-3; 21:22
    And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. . . . And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.


    1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    During a separate vision, this descent can similarly be shown to result in the new earth.

    Revelation 20:11
    And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


    Presumably, the earth would only flee from Jesus's face once he actually arrives (descends), giving the earth something from which to flee.

  • #2
    I understand the day of Christ and the day of the Lord as one and the same. That the millennium takes place in it.

    ". . . that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." -- John 6:40. The "first resurrection" Revelation 20:5.

    And that it is for the day of judgement that takes place in it, following the millennium, in that, ". . . the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. . . . wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat . . ." ". . . from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    • #3
      I don't know if the "last day" is the same as the day of the Lord. The general postmillennialist interpretation of John 6:40 is that it refers to the physical resurrection, and that it takes place after the millennium. I didn't mean to imply that every single reference to the word "day" was actually a thousand years.

      Notably, in the preceding chapter, Jesus uses the word "hour" to describe the physical resurrection (i.e., showing that it will take place during a short time).

      John 5:28-29
      Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

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      • #4
        I understand the day of Christ and the day of the Lord as one and the same. That the millennium takes place in it.
        Wait, so you are actually saying that the day of the Lord is longer than 1000 years? Interesting

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        • #5
          Some good points Ob
          The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

          sigpic

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          • #6
            So am I right that you're entire premise here is based on the assumption that the millennium is symbolic?
            "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

            Comment


            • #7
              yes

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                Notably, in the preceding chapter, Jesus uses the word "hour" to describe the physical resurrection (i.e., showing that it will take place during a short time).

                John 5:28-29
                Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
                Good observation.
                For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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