Originally posted by Cow Poke
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream Christian churches. What are the differences between Catholics and protestants? How has the charismatic movement affected the church? Are Southern baptists different from fundamentalist baptists? It is also for discussions about the nature of the church.
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and theists. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions. Additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and theists. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions. Additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101.
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The Church has lost its voice in the US
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"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostA few weeks ago, he said that Paul's teachings on sexuality "don't work" in today's world... a statement I don't get.
http://www.pcusa.org/news/2014/5/29/...13-statistics/The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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To be fair, there are still some very good churches in these mainline denominations. My own church is in one and has been growing. The pastor is a staunch believer in the power of the Holy Spirit, and the church isn't involved on the wrong side of social issues."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostA few weeks ago, he said that Paul's teachings on sexuality "don't work" in today's world... a statement I don't get.
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostTo be fair, there are still some very good churches in these mainline denominations. My own church is in one and has been growing. The pastor is a staunch believer in the power of the Holy Spirit, and the church isn't involved on the wrong side of social issues.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by apostoli View PostThankyou ThoughtfulMonk. I agree with everything you say.
I said "YHWH ignores the transgressions of people and instead exalted them". Possibly I should have used a word other than "ignore", "cover" is used by the prophets for what I meant."For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6
"Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom
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Originally posted by hedrick View PostI just checked for all of my posting back to early 2014 mentioning Paul. None of them related to sex. The search command doesn't allow a search for sex, but sexual didn't show much. I don't think I've talked much about sexual ethics here, nor the question of homosexuality. The phrase you quote doesn't sound like what I'd say.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Perhaps KG can make some comments on this.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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This is the post I had in mind. The exact wording was not quite what I remembered but I believe I did remember the general gist:
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post137323"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostThis is the post I had in mind. The exact wording was not quite what I remembered but I believe I did remember the general gist:
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post137323
I actually said something else immediately following that is far more radical than that, but I didn't recognize the specific statement you quoted. Apologies.
But the reason I didn't want to say that in this thread is that I think it is a distraction. My point was that people are less likely to look at what the Church says on homosexuality because some of the same people who are most vocal on that were also standing at the schoolhouse door in the civil rights period, and their forefathers were using the same literal interpretation to defend slavery. This is clearly *not* a logical argument against the conservative position on homosexuality. But the OP didn't call for a discussion on the merits of homosexuality. It observed that the Church had lost its voice. Indeed you made many of the same points that I did, pointing to the failures on slavery, race, and in some areas, child abuse. As far as I can tell, we're not in disagreement on the subject of this thread.Last edited by hedrick; 07-15-2015, 09:24 PM.
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Originally posted by hedrick View PostIf you want to know why we've lost influence, read the Barna organization's book "unchristian." They document pretty clearly why the change in public attitude towards Christianity has occurred. It's because Christians are widely perceived as being unchristian....
http://wisdomandfollyblog.com/unchri...a-book-review/
What is plainly evident is that THE SURVEY FINDINGS DO NOT CONCERN ITSELF WITH CHRISTIANS per se but the christian fringe - the self righteous and introspective "born again" fraternity.
"In the book Kinnaman presents the results of several years of research into what outsiders to the faith think about [born again] Christianity. A common reaction among those he surveyed is summed up in the book’s title. Outsiders, says Kinnaman, “think [born again] Christians no longer represent what Jesus had in mind, that [their version of] Christianity in [USA] society is not what it was meant to be” (p. 15). By “outsider” Kinnaman means anyone who is not a “born-again Christian,” including [Christians of all other designations], atheists, agnostics, and devotees of other faiths..."
"Chapter three [of the book] deals with the perception of Christian hypocrisy—the notion that there is a significant gap between [born again] Christians’ beliefs and behavior..."
"...some of [Kinnaman] data suggest that “[born again] Christians [aged 23-41] are increasingly permissive in their moral beliefs” (p. 53)... Specifically...
33% believe viewing pornography is morally acceptable
44% believe sex outside of marriage is morally acceptable
59% believe cohabitation is morally acceptable"
"Now this raises two crucial questions. First, given these moral convictions (or lack thereof), why should it surprise us that the behavior of born-again Christians is also morally lax? That’s not hypocrisy but a sad sort of consistency between belief and practice. Second, just what is meant by the designation “born-again Christian” in these Barna polls? Here is Kinnaman’s answer: “To be classified as a born-again Christian, a person has to say he or she has made a personal commitment to Jesus that is still important and that the person believes he or she will go to heaven at death, because the person has confessed his or her sin and accepted Christ as Savior” (p. 46). Kinnaman uses this definition in his surveys for subjects to self-identify (as either born-again or not) and, presumably, to identify others (as born-again or not). He recognizes that this approach is “not perfect,” but he doesn’t see just how flawed it is. For one thing, this definition completely ignores the biblical emphasis on obedience as definitive of genuine saving faith (see John 14:21-23, James 2:14-26, and Gal. 5:22-23). To use this unbiblical definition as the crux of one’s research into Christian behavior and perceptions of Christians is, to say the least, problematic..."Last edited by apostoli; 07-16-2015, 01:51 AM.
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I think this review of UnChristian is wrong. I looked at the book. First, some of the results about attitudes report people's impression of Christians, of evangelicals, and of born-again Christians. There are differences, but the same negative impressions are present for Christians in general.
Second, their definition of outsider is someone who is unchurched, who is not a born-again Christian. That is, they generally classify someone who doesn't go to church as non-Christian, except that if they report they are born-again they are still classified as Christian even if they are unchurched. This is clearly a weird definition, but not the weird definition that the reviewer claims. The book is pretty clear to say when they are referring specifically to born-again and when they are not. In the data about pornography and sex outside of marriage, the reviewer seems to be claiming that Kinnamon reports data on born-again Christians attributing it to Christians as a whole. In fact the statistics quoted are clearly labelled as for born-again Christians. Not all the statistics in the book are that way. Does the reviewer really think the results would be different for other Christians?
But I cited the book not because of its description of the morals of born-again Christians, but because of their results on how people view Christians. Their questions generally asked about the responders views of Christians, though sometimes the questions differentiated.
One of the problems noted in the book is that outsiders don't clearly differentiate between different kinds of Christians. I personally think that the behaviors outsiders attribute to Christians are more common among born-again Christians than other types of Christians. E.g. one key thing is that outsiders perceive Christians as anti-homosexual. However in fact that is true mostly of conservative Protestants, i.e. evangelicals. Mainline Christians and Catholics are both generally accepting of homosexuality and gay marriage, despite the official views of the Catholic hierarchy. (E.g. see http://www.people-press.org/2013/06/...homosexuality/ on homosexuality in general and http://www.pewforum.org/2015/06/08/g...-gay-marriage/ on gay marriage.) The book is written by a "born-again" Christians. He makes that quite clear. The book takes it for granted that the evangelical perspective on this is right. But the survey reports suggest that outsiders attribute this view to all Christians.
Here's what they say on a question that asked separately about attitudes towards Christians, evangelicals and born-again. That survey showed that 38 - 49% (depending upon definition) of young outsiders had an overall negative impression of all three, with evangelicals being seen a bit more negatively than born-again and Christians in general, and 3 - 16% having a good impression. This compares with 1996, when 85% of outsiders had a positive impression of Christianity. It's this change I was particularly commenting on. At any rate, here's their comment on that result:
"We did not define “evangelical” or “born again” for respondents; we simply asked if they had ever heard of the groups and, if so, to describe their opinions. As we probed these young peoples’ perceptions, we encountered a great deal of confusion. For instance, many outsiders thought born-again Christians were former believers who had left the church and subsequently returned, hence, born again. Evangelicals were often thought to be Christians who are political activists. But beyond misunderstanding the terms, most young outsiders pay little attention to the specific theological perspectives that comprise the evangelical or born-again groups."
I don't have as much detailed support for surveys, but it's my impression that the same thing is true of other issues on which outsiders criticized Christians. That is, I think the attitudes that outsiders objected to were in fact most true of conservative Protestants, compared to mainline Protestants or Catholics. But as far as I can tell, outsiders do not differentiate. They are getting negative impressions of Christianity as a whole.Last edited by hedrick; 07-16-2015, 06:59 AM.
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Originally posted by hedrick View Post. . . snip . . .It's because Christians are widely perceived as being unchristian.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostThe real reason Christians are being seen as unchristian is that a false picture of what being Christian means. We are told that we are unchristian because we are not nice enough to open sinners. This is not a surprise to me.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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