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Discussion on matters of general mainstream Christian churches. What are the differences between Catholics and protestants? How has the charismatic movement affected the church? Are Southern baptists different from fundamentalist baptists? It is also for discussions about the nature of the church.

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The Church has lost its voice in the US

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Abigail View Post
    Gay people wont settle for being viewed as immature Christians and held back from leadership roles etc and many of the churches are only too happy to side with them (or be portrayed like this http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...nbow-flag.html ) so I really don't know what the way forward is on that one other than like-minded churches coming together , which is ultimately another split.
    One of the fundamental reasons the Southern Baptists of Texas (one of our STATE associations) was formed was because we had a member church in Austin that was proudly proclaiming to be comprised of gays, lesbians, and transgendered persons as STAFF - not that they ministered to these people, but that they WERE these people.

    A number of us pastors and churches appealed to our Baptist General Convention of Texas (then, the only State convention for SBC Texans) to withdraw fellowship or otherwise discipline them. They declined, so we formed our own State association.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #47
      I liked this which was posted by Spartacus not so long ago

      Originally posted by Spartacus
      from Joseph Ratzinger, who would go on to become Pope Benedict XVI, writing in the late 1960s:
      From the crisis of today the Church of tomorrow will emerge—a Church that has lost much. She will become small and will have to start afresh more or less from the beginning. She will no longer be able to inhabit many of the edifices she built in prosperity. As the number of her adherents diminishes, so will she lose many of her social privileges. In contrast to an earlier age, she will be seen much more as a voluntary society, entered only by free decision
      [....]
      But in all of the changes at which one might guess, the Church will find her essence afresh and with full conviction in that which was always at her center: faith in the triune God, in Jesus Christ, the Son of God made man, in the presence of the Spirit until the end of the world. In faith and prayer she will again recognize her true center and experience the sacraments again as the worship of God and not as a subject for liturgical scholarship
      [....]
      Men in a totally planned world will find themselves unspeakably lonely. If they have completely lost sight of God, they will feel the whole horror of their poverty. Then they will discover the little flock of believers as something wholly new. They will discover it as a hope that is meant for them, an answer for which they have always been searching in secret.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Abigail View Post
        Gay people wont settle for being viewed as immature Christians and held back from leadership roles etc and many of the churches are only too happy to side with them (or be portrayed like this http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...nbow-flag.html ) so I really don't know what the way forward is on that one other than like-minded churches coming together , which is ultimately another split.
        People who are gay (and become celibate) can certainly become mature Christians, and even hold some important positions in the Church, just as someone who formerly lived a life of sin, and was married and divorced can become mature a mature Christian and be single and celibate.

        But, there are clearly churches that will not join.

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        • #49
          Divorce and remarriage has been brought up multiple times but let me just re-iterate the Scriptures are not quite as clear on what to do as it is with homosexuality. The Bible doesn't actually say to go ahead and divorce your second spouse (very few scholars actually hold this position)... but it is clear that if you are engaged in homosexuality, the time to stop is now. So no, I am not willing to condemn churches based on their view of divorce and remarriage... but I am willing to hold them to a higher standard on homosexuality. I would say the same about a church that encouraged its members to go get drunk.

          TLDR: This is a false equivalency in that the passages are not equally clear. Pro-gay theology is based on voodoo exegesis and there is no "legitimate" controversy.
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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          • #50
            Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
            People who are gay (and become celibate) can certainly become mature Christians, and even hold some important positions in the Church, just as someone who formerly lived a life of sin, and was married and divorced can become mature a mature Christian and be single and celibate.
            Yes, that goes without saying but that wasn't what I was talking about but rather those who are not prepared to live celibate.
            Originally posted by themuzicman
            But, there are clearly churches that will not join.
            ok

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            • #51
              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
              Divorce and remarriage has been brought up multiple times but let me just re-iterate the Scriptures are not quite as clear on what to do as it is with homosexuality. The Bible doesn't actually say to go ahead and divorce your second spouse (very few scholars actually hold this position)... but it is clear that if you are engaged in homosexuality, the time to stop is now. So no, I am not willing to condemn churches based on their view of divorce and remarriage... but I am willing to hold them to a higher standard on homosexuality. I would say the same about a church that encouraged its members to go get drunk.
              yeah

              TLDR: This is a false equivalency in that the passages are not equally clear. Pro-gay theology is based on voodoo exegesis and there is no "legitimate" controversy.
              "Too Long, Didn't Read"? To what did that refer?
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                Divorce and remarriage has been brought up multiple times but let me just re-iterate the Scriptures are not quite as clear on what to do as it is with homosexuality. The Bible doesn't actually say to go ahead and divorce your second spouse (very few scholars actually hold this position)... but it is clear that if you are engaged in homosexuality, the time to stop is now. So no, I am not willing to condemn churches based on their view of divorce and remarriage... but I am willing to hold them to a higher standard on homosexuality. I would say the same about a church that encouraged its members to go get drunk.

                TLDR: This is a false equivalency in that the passages are not equally clear. Pro-gay theology is based on voodoo exegesis and there is no "legitimate" controversy.
                The bible isn't clear on whether churches should be doing weddings for divorcees who didn't divorce for adultery, or because an unbeliever wouldn't stay with them because they were Christian? Where's the vagueness?

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
                  Assumption isn't. Eternal virginity isn't.
                  Neither of those are required beliefs, though long-held.
                  And do you marry divorcees?
                  As a concession, most jurisdictions will. I don't know if all do, because this is not church-wide doctrine and is handled at the local level.

                  Again, you're focusing on secondary issues rather than deal with my questions, which are fundamental to your OP. Here, I'll repeat them for you.

                  Originally posted by OBP
                  Originally posted by muz
                  Fundamental doctrine matters. Trinity. Deity of Christ and incarnation. Christ's death being justification and propitiation. Salvation by faith. Bodily resurrection.

                  The rest is disputable.
                  The question is, what doctrine is fundamental, and why? Once a doctrine is determined to be fundamental, is conformity required, or does that 'suppress critical thought'?
                  Per your post, marriage and divorce is 'disputable.' Why are you focusing on that instead of answering my questions?
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
                    OK, does your church marry people who do not have biblical grounds for being divorced?
                    I only attend infrequently. And it is a new church for us.
                    That's what
                    - She

                    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                    Stephen R. Donaldson

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
                      The bible isn't clear on whether churches should be doing weddings for divorcees who didn't divorce for adultery, or because an unbeliever wouldn't stay with them because they were Christian? Where's the vagueness?
                      It depends on if you allow for hyperbole in the Sermon on the Mount. Can you please stop dodging the point about homosexuality, though?
                      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                        It depends on if you allow for hyperbole in the Sermon on the Mount. Can you please stop dodging the point about homosexuality, though?
                        I'm not dodging it at all. I'm saying that remarriage after divorce (minus exceptions) is just as clear a sin as homosexuality. Yet, churches wink at one and not the other.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          Neither of those are required beliefs, though long-held.

                          As a concession, most jurisdictions will. I don't know if all do, because this is not church-wide doctrine and is handled at the local level.

                          Again, you're focusing on secondary issues rather than deal with my questions, which are fundamental to your OP. Here, I'll repeat them for you.
                          Fundamental are those things required to be a Christian. It defines what a Christian is. I'll concede that Jesus was born of a virgin as fundamental. (My appeal is to the apostle's creed, Nicaea and Chalcedon.)

                          Per your post, marriage and divorce is 'disputable.' Why are you focusing on that instead of answering my questions?
                          Because the hypocrisy of marrying divorcees and condemning gay marriage is indicative of why the Church has lost its voice.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
                            What beliefs core to Christianity (trinity,deity of Christ, justification by Christ's death, salvation by faith, bodily resurrection) are they abandoning?
                            PCUSA Justification by Christ's death Salvation by faith they have now ordained pastors that do not believe Christ is the way. and well on their way to the others. which is why my congregation left them.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
                              And yet Paul is chiding his audience FOR DOING THEM. But he hasn't said that they're going to hell for it.
                              I never said they were. The implication is that he is telling them to STOP doing those things.


                              Does your church marry people who have been divorced?
                              No.


                              Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                So is this whole thread about divorce?


                                Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                                Comment

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