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Discussion on matters of general mainstream Christian churches. What are the differences between Catholics and protestants? How has the charismatic movement affected the church? Are Southern baptists different from fundamentalist baptists? It is also for discussions about the nature of the church.

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The Church has lost its voice in the US

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    I do not believe the Church has lost it's voice at all. Because society refuses to listen does not reflect on the Church but on society. I capitalize the word church above only to point to the fact that we are indeed united in Christ Jesus, not in society. There is one Church.
    Really? What distinguishes the Church from the culture based upon the actions of its attendees?

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by mossrose View Post
      And he means by that that we oughtn't do those things!
      And yet Paul is chiding his audience FOR DOING THEM. But he hasn't said that they're going to hell for it.

      It IS a matter of what is sin. Because when you start telling people that what God clearly calls sin is not, then you are changing God's word to suit your own purposes.

      I will not be united with anyone who calls sin less than what it is. I don't care what the sin is. The standard is God's, not what any denomination says it is.
      Does your church marry people who have been divorced?
      Last edited by themuzicman; 07-01-2015, 06:49 AM.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        The Bible doesn't specifically spell out that trinitarianism is required for salvation (though you can make a very strong case for this)... but it does say that homosexuality is a disqualifier. So why does the list of issues you provided have to be the "fundamentals?"

        (Incidentally, Bible scholars disagree on whether the grammar of what Jesus said on divorce and remarriage mean that the remarrying is a one time or an ongoing sin... so I don't think it's entirely clear the way 1 Cor 6:10-11 is.)
        Keep reading all the way through verse 13.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          You're dodging my questions.

          Doctrine about Mary would be fundamental to the extent it affects doctrine about her Son.
          Assumption isn't. Eternal virginity isn't.

          Annulment is an RCC fig leaf. The EO tends to allow divorces as a concession to human frailty; ideally they would not occur. There is no official EO doctrine allowing for it.
          And do you marry divorcees?

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          • #35
            Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
            What I'm getting at is that the Church is virtually indistinguishable from the culture around it.
            That's an awfully broad brush. There has always been a "remnant", and if you're using "capital C Church", then this should be "all the saints through all the ages" - not just a bunch of big denominations that have strayed.

            Embracing gay marriage is one symptom of that.
            Southern Baptists make up a large part of the non-Catholic Church in the US, and we've been very clear about our position on the family.


            So is embracing divorce and marrying divorcees. This is just one example (the hot button of the moment, if you will) of many areas where the Church just lacks being distinct from the world.

            I pulled out that verse to show that churches that do embrace gay marriage haven't gone all the way to apostasy, and one thing the Church could do is to set aside petty differences and seek to establish a higher standard of conduct for those who attend our Churches, even if it drives away the deadwood who don't really want to be different from the culture.
            Many of us are doing that, Muz.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
              If the divorce was on biblical grounds, then remarriage of the innocent party is not adultery.
              OK, does your church marry people who do not have biblical grounds for being divorced?

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                That's an awfully broad brush. There has always been a "remnant", and if you're using "capital C Church", then this should be "all the saints through all the ages" - not just a bunch of big denominations that have strayed.
                I was referring to the US church today.

                Southern Baptists make up a large part of the non-Catholic Church in the US, and we've been very clear about our position on the family.
                And do the SBC marry divorcees?


                Many of us are doing that, Muz.
                Not enough.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
                  OK, does your church marry people who do not have biblical grounds for being divorced?
                  Muz,

                  Bob and Sally got married when they were teenagers. Subsequently, as a young adult, Sally received Christ as savior, and asked for forgiveness for her sins. Is her divorce "under the blood"? Is it forgiven?
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Muz,

                    Bob and Sally got married when they were teenagers. Subsequently, as a young adult, Sally received Christ as savior, and asked for forgiveness for her sins. Is her divorce "under the blood"? Is it forgiven?
                    Forgiveness does not mean an exemption from consequences. We can accept and love her in spite of her mistakes, but we cannot simply make a tradition that contradicts Scripture.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
                      I was referring to the US church today.
                      And I'm part of that. I don't think it's helpful to use this broad a brush when there are those who are still being faithful.

                      And do the SBC marry divorcees?
                      Each local SBC Church is autonomous - they are not required to hold to a creed. HOWEVER, the vast majority of us hold to the Baptist Faith & Message, cited earlier. Additionally, the "SBC" (or its member Churches) does (do) not marry anybody - the pastors of those Churches do.

                      Not enough.
                      Sure, I wish there were MORE, but there ARE some of us who are being faithful.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        And I'm part of that. I don't think it's helpful to use this broad a brush when there are those who are still being faithful.



                        Each local SBC Church is autonomous - they are not required to hold to a creed. HOWEVER, the vast majority of us hold to the Baptist Faith & Message, cited earlier. Additionally, the "SBC" (or its member Churches) does (do) not marry anybody - the pastors of those Churches do.



                        Sure, I wish there were MORE, but there ARE some of us who are being faithful.
                        Broad brushes are meant to be general, not absolute.

                        And your statement doesn't mention divorce.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
                          Forgiveness does not mean an exemption from consequences.
                          Absolutely. But Grace often does. When Jesus intervened in the woman caught in adultery, he stopped the consequences that the religious people were carrying out.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
                            Broad brushes are meant to be general, not absolute.

                            And your statement doesn't mention divorce.
                            It describes the family. Divorce is left up to the autonomy of the local Church to deal with on a case by case basis.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              Absolutely. But Grace often does. When Jesus intervened in the woman caught in adultery, he stopped the consequences that the religious people were carrying out.
                              That story was not part of the Original text, but was added by some Byzantine scribe.

                              And grace is not a basis for ignoring Scripture's instructions.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
                                What I'm getting at is that the Church is virtually indistinguishable from the culture around it. Embracing gay marriage is one symptom of that. So is embracing divorce and marrying divorcees. This is just one example (the hot button of the moment, if you will) of many areas where the Church just lacks being distinct from the world.

                                I pulled out that verse to show that churches that do embrace gay marriage haven't gone all the way to apostasy, and one thing the Church could do is to set aside petty differences and seek to establish a higher standard of conduct for those who attend our Churches, even if it drives away the deadwood who don't really want to be different from the culture.
                                Gay people wont settle for being viewed as immature Christians and held back from leadership roles etc and many of the churches are only too happy to side with them (or be portrayed like this http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...nbow-flag.html ) so I really don't know what the way forward is on that one other than like-minded churches coming together , which is ultimately another split.

                                Comment

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