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The Church has lost its voice in the US

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  • #16
    Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
    Where did Jesus say that marrying a divorced person stops being adultery at some point?
    Never
    Does your church refuse to marry divorced people?
    Yes we do refuse to marry them.
    Or are you just as apostate as those you accuse of being apostate?
    Nope...and our church and denomination is growing...
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
      If the divorce was on biblical grounds, then remarriage of the innocent party is not adultery.
      So, who all here has a church that remarries people who are divorced for any reason?

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
        Never
        Yes we do refuse to marry them.
        Nope...and our church and denomination is growing...
        Amazing, isn't it?

        Comment


        • #19
          D
          Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
          Ever read the rest of the list?

          How about the rest of the chapter?



          Ever done anything unrighteous? Are you still going to heaven?



          Paul goes on to say that the Corinthians WERE these things before they were saved.

          But now that they are saved, "ALL THINGS ARE PERMISSIBLE, but NOT ALL THINGS ARE PROFITABLE." This doesn't make the actions in that list any less sinful, but it does point out the change that occurs when we become Christians. Yes, homosexual acts are SIN. So is marrying a divorced person (that's adultery, according to Jesus.) Does your church perform marriages for divorced people? Do you allow unrepentant adulterers in your church? Are YOU apostate?


          So, while what they may be preaching is doctrinally incorrect, it is not APOSTASY, and as such we should seek to be unified so we can (together) raise a higher standard to make us distinct from the Church.

          We WERE those things. We are not anymore. We have repented and do not continue in the same sin. If we do sin, we are to repent, and He is faithful and just to forgive and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

          Doctrine is highly important. If the church in general had not embraced pragmatism for several decades, even a century, and continued to preach the Word of God in its entirety, we would not be as divided as we are now. But the scripture has been watered down and parts of it have been ignored and made to say that which it does not. And changing scripture to make it say what you want to say is absolutely wrong.

          And most everybody seems to ignore Romans 1.


          Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by mossrose View Post
            D


            We WERE those things. We are not anymore. We have repented and do not continue in the same sin. If we do sin, we are to repent, and He is faithful and just to forgive and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
            I think Paul goes on to say that "all things are permissible, but not all things are profitable."

            Yes, it's sin. But, no, it doesn't make the Episcopal church "apostate."

            Doctrine is highly important. If the church in general had not embraced pragmatism for several decades, even a century, and continued to preach the Word of God in its entirety, we would not be as divided as we are now. But the scripture has been watered down and parts of it have been ignored and made to say that which it does not. And changing scripture to make it say what you want to say is absolutely wrong.
            In the '60s and '70s (and even into the '80s), Baptists, Calvinists, and other traditional denominations hammered their doctrine so hard, that 2/3s of baby boomers in the US left the church when they could.

            And most everybody seems to ignore Romans 1.
            Again, it's not a matter of what's sin or what isn't, but rather regaining the idea of being distinct in the culture both through unity even as we disagree and holding ourselves to a uniquely distinct standard.

            Comment


            • #21
              The Bible doesn't specifically spell out that trinitarianism is required for salvation (though you can make a very strong case for this)... but it does say that homosexuality is a disqualifier. So why does the list of issues you provided have to be the "fundamentals?"

              (Incidentally, Bible scholars disagree on whether the grammar of what Jesus said on divorce and remarriage mean that the remarrying is a one time or an ongoing sin... so I don't think it's entirely clear the way 1 Cor 6:10-11 is.)
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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              • #22
                Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
                I think Paul goes on to say that "all things are permissible, but not all things are profitable."
                And he means by that that we oughtn't do those things!

                Yes, it's sin. But, no, it doesn't make the Episcopal church "apostate."



                In the '60s and '70s (and even into the '80s), Baptists, Calvinists, and other traditional denominations hammered their doctrine so hard, that 2/3s of baby boomers in the US left the church when they could.



                Again, it's not a matter of what's sin or what isn't, but rather regaining the idea of being distinct in the culture both through unity even as we disagree and holding ourselves to a uniquely distinct standard.
                It IS a matter of what is sin. Because when you start telling people that what God clearly calls sin is not, then you are changing God's word to suit your own purposes.

                I will not be united with anyone who calls sin less than what it is. I don't care what the sin is. The standard is God's, not what any denomination says it is.
                Last edited by mossrose; 06-30-2015, 01:59 PM.


                Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
                  It's been happening for a very long time, but I think this week put the final nerve stimulating the figurative final vocal chord to rest. The Church is irrelevant in our culture. If the ending of traditional marriage happens with barely a whisper of discontent, what else is there?

                  Unfortunately, the Church has a troubled history in the US, being divided over slavery, divided over race issues, even into the '60s and '70s, driving off 2/3s of the baby boom generation, only to re-emerge with a "don't worry, be happy" message that somehow left out the idea that spiritual maturity should be the result of being Christian.

                  Millennials are now leaving the Church, probably because it is irrelevant and indistinguishable from the crumbling culture around it. Divorce rates are still the same from evangelicals to atheists. The RCC covers up for pedophile priests. Very public preachers are more interested in wealth than preaching the gospel. We even have reality TV shows about it. A church is measured solely by the number of people who come. Much of the new Church is anti-intellectual. Why would young people waste their time? We've fallen either into an Extroverted-Feeling mode of Christianity that is a mile wide and an inch deep, or into Churches that demand absolute doctrinal conformity, even when those doctrines have questionable exegesis.

                  In the myers-briggs temperment indicator, we can group people more or less into three categories: EF, SJ, and NT. Yes, I know there are 16 types, and even a couple of letters not represented, but the remainder relate to one of these. The church has broken off into two of these three: SJ is the traditional Church: RCC, EO, CRC types, who demand conformity to all Church doctrine, and suppress critical thought; and EF, the loud, relationally oriented Church, where everyone feels good about themselves, and anti-intellectual attitudes abound.

                  The NT, those in the STEAM (scientific, technology, engineering, academic and management) fields have been left out. The SJ demands that they accept but not think, the EF demands that they feel and relate. Is it any wonder these are the types who tend to be agnostic, or worse have a poor experience in church, and abandon the faith?

                  Worse yet, these are the leaders, the problem solvers, and the discoverers who move organizations forward in a meaningful way.


                  If there was ever a time to seek unity, to give up petty squabbles, to change to embrace the whole church, and then to hold ourselves to a higher standard, one that distinguishes us from the culture around us, it is now. Only in being different, in being spiritually mature, will we attract young people and get the attention of the culture around us. And that will only happen when we embrace everyone in one context, SJ, EF, and NT working TOGETHER to raise a new standard.

                  So, how about you? Are you uniting or dividing?
                  Our Church is (as has been discussed elsewhere) sharing our building with a Lutheran Congregation. I think this has really opened the eyes of our people - including new visitors and members - that we need to focus on the things where we agree, and not quibble about the things where we disagree. Just recently, we discovered a local Methodist congregation that was struggling to pay their bills, and their air conditioner went out. With permission from their leadership, we sent a repairman to get them up and running. That's a SMALL thing, but paves the way for dialogue.

                  Also, our Texas Pastor Council is made up of a number of denominations, races, creeds, etc..... and we did a pretty good job, in my opinion, getting the Texas Legislature to pass the Pastor Protection Bill. (We are now, of course, assessing what that means in light of the SCOTUS decision, but we 'for sure' wanted to get this legislation passed PRIOR to that trainwreck.)
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                    There's a difference between ever having done something and doing it on an ongoing basis without making any effort to stop.
                    Which is EXACTLY why I (and others?) were so adamantly against 'gay marriage'.... that's a declaration that "we don't intend to stop". It is, in my opinion, a declaration of independence from God.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      If the divorce was on biblical grounds, then remarriage of the innocent party is not adultery.
                      It's always been troubling to me that somebody can murder somebody before they're saved, and be totally forgiven, but a divorced person carries that condemnation through their whole life. We can be so selective about what's "under the Blood".
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                        I will not be united with anyone who calls sin less than what it is. I don't care what the sin is. The standard is God's, not what any denomination says it is.
                        I always say, "When we stand before God, we go by HIS dictionary and lexicon, not ours".
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
                          What beliefs core to Christianity (trinity,deity of Christ, justification by Christ's death, salvation by faith, bodily resurrection) are they abandoning?
                          Eph 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith.

                          We are not saved by faith, but by grace through faith. What is faith? It is not simply proclaiming a belief. If I truly have faith it will be visible in my life. If I proclaim that living in sin without repentance is okay where is my faith?
                          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
                            It's been happening for a very long time, but I think this week put the final nerve stimulating the figurative final vocal chord to rest. The Church is irrelevant in our culture. If the ending of traditional marriage happens with barely a whisper of discontent, what else is there?
                            I do not believe the Church has lost it's voice at all. Because society refuses to listen does not reflect on the Church but on society. I capitalize the word church above only to point to the fact that we are indeed united in Christ Jesus, not in society. There is one Church.
                            Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
                              It's been happening for a very long time, but I think this week put the final nerve stimulating the figurative final vocal chord to rest. The Church is irrelevant in our culture. If the ending of traditional marriage happens with barely a whisper of discontent, what else is there?

                              Unfortunately, the Church has a troubled history in the US, being divided over slavery, divided over race issues, even into the '60s and '70s, driving off 2/3s of the baby boom generation, only to re-emerge with a "don't worry, be happy" message that somehow left out the idea that spiritual maturity should be the result of being Christian.

                              Millennials are now leaving the Church, probably because it is irrelevant and indistinguishable from the crumbling culture around it. Divorce rates are still the same from evangelicals to atheists. The RCC covers up for pedophile priests. Very public preachers are more interested in wealth than preaching the gospel. We even have reality TV shows about it. A church is measured solely by the number of people who come. Much of the new Church is anti-intellectual. Why would young people waste their time? We've fallen either into an Extroverted-Feeling mode of Christianity that is a mile wide and an inch deep, or into Churches that demand absolute doctrinal conformity, even when those doctrines have questionable exegesis.

                              In the myers-briggs temperment indicator, we can group people more or less into three categories: EF, SJ, and NT. Yes, I know there are 16 types, and even a couple of letters not represented, but the remainder relate to one of these. The church has broken off into two of these three: SJ is the traditional Church: RCC, EO, CRC types, who demand conformity to all Church doctrine, and suppress critical thought; and EF, the loud, relationally oriented Church, where everyone feels good about themselves, and anti-intellectual attitudes abound.

                              The NT, those in the STEAM (scientific, technology, engineering, academic and management) fields have been left out. The SJ demands that they accept but not think, the EF demands that they feel and relate. Is it any wonder these are the types who tend to be agnostic, or worse have a poor experience in church, and abandon the faith?

                              Worse yet, these are the leaders, the problem solvers, and the discoverers who move organizations forward in a meaningful way.


                              If there was ever a time to seek unity, to give up petty squabbles, to change to embrace the whole church, and then to hold ourselves to a higher standard, one that distinguishes us from the culture around us, it is now. Only in being different, in being spiritually mature, will we attract young people and get the attention of the culture around us. And that will only happen when we embrace everyone in one context, SJ, EF, and NT working TOGETHER to raise a new standard.

                              So, how about you? Are you uniting or dividing?
                              I am not sure what you are suggesting, because you seem to be concerned at the ending of traditional marriage but then you draw attention to the 'all things permissible but not all things profitable' verse. I know a lot of churches here in UK seem to think committed gay marriage is fine and the only unprofitable thing should be divorce. Is that what you are getting at?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Abigail View Post
                                I am not sure what you are suggesting, because you seem to be concerned at the ending of traditional marriage but then you draw attention to the 'all things permissible but not all things profitable' verse. I know a lot of churches here in UK seem to think committed gay marriage is fine and the only unprofitable thing should be divorce. Is that what you are getting at?
                                What I'm getting at is that the Church is virtually indistinguishable from the culture around it. Embracing gay marriage is one symptom of that. So is embracing divorce and marrying divorcees. This is just one example (the hot button of the moment, if you will) of many areas where the Church just lacks being distinct from the world.

                                I pulled out that verse to show that churches that do embrace gay marriage haven't gone all the way to apostasy, and one thing the Church could do is to set aside petty differences and seek to establish a higher standard of conduct for those who attend our Churches, even if it drives away the deadwood who don't really want to be different from the culture.

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