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The Church has lost its voice in the US

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  • The Church has lost its voice in the US

    It's been happening for a very long time, but I think this week put the final nerve stimulating the figurative final vocal chord to rest. The Church is irrelevant in our culture. If the ending of traditional marriage happens with barely a whisper of discontent, what else is there?

    Unfortunately, the Church has a troubled history in the US, being divided over slavery, divided over race issues, even into the '60s and '70s, driving off 2/3s of the baby boom generation, only to re-emerge with a "don't worry, be happy" message that somehow left out the idea that spiritual maturity should be the result of being Christian.

    Millennials are now leaving the Church, probably because it is irrelevant and indistinguishable from the crumbling culture around it. Divorce rates are still the same from evangelicals to atheists. The RCC covers up for pedophile priests. Very public preachers are more interested in wealth than preaching the gospel. We even have reality TV shows about it. A church is measured solely by the number of people who come. Much of the new Church is anti-intellectual. Why would young people waste their time? We've fallen either into an Extroverted-Feeling mode of Christianity that is a mile wide and an inch deep, or into Churches that demand absolute doctrinal conformity, even when those doctrines have questionable exegesis.

    In the myers-briggs temperment indicator, we can group people more or less into three categories: EF, SJ, and NT. Yes, I know there are 16 types, and even a couple of letters not represented, but the remainder relate to one of these. The church has broken off into two of these three: SJ is the traditional Church: RCC, EO, CRC types, who demand conformity to all Church doctrine, and suppress critical thought; and EF, the loud, relationally oriented Church, where everyone feels good about themselves, and anti-intellectual attitudes abound.

    The NT, those in the STEAM (scientific, technology, engineering, academic and management) fields have been left out. The SJ demands that they accept but not think, the EF demands that they feel and relate. Is it any wonder these are the types who tend to be agnostic, or worse have a poor experience in church, and abandon the faith?

    Worse yet, these are the leaders, the problem solvers, and the discoverers who move organizations forward in a meaningful way.


    If there was ever a time to seek unity, to give up petty squabbles, to change to embrace the whole church, and then to hold ourselves to a higher standard, one that distinguishes us from the culture around us, it is now. Only in being different, in being spiritually mature, will we attract young people and get the attention of the culture around us. And that will only happen when we embrace everyone in one context, SJ, EF, and NT working TOGETHER to raise a new standard.

    So, how about you? Are you uniting or dividing?

  • #2
    How can we seek unity when some of the largest denominations are adopting stances that are tantamount to apostasy?
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      How can we seek unity when some of the largest denominations are adopting stances that are tantamount to apostasy?
      That.
      That's what
      - She

      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
      Stephen R. Donaldson

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        How can we seek unity when some of the largest denominations are adopting stances that are tantamount to apostasy?
        What beliefs core to Christianity (trinity,deity of Christ, justification by Christ's death, salvation by faith, bodily resurrection) are they abandoning?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
          What beliefs core to Christianity (trinity,deity of Christ, justification by Christ's death, salvation by faith, bodily resurrection) are they abandoning?
          According to Paul, unrepentant homosexuality disqualifies one from salvation (1 Cor 6:10-11). When entire denominations are telling people this is not true, that is literally leading people to hell.
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

          Comment


          • #6
            ,

            Either doctrine matters (requiring some sort of conformity), or it doesn't and thus isn't worth thinking about (anti-intellectualism). And even the RCC is not as doctrinally rigid as you imply here. The church in the US has never been united, because it is largely Protestant, and Protestants have never been united.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
              According to Paul, unrepentant homosexuality disqualifies one from salvation (1 Cor 6:10-11). When entire denominations are telling people this is not true, that is literally leading people to hell.
              Ever read the rest of the list?

              How about the rest of the chapter?

              9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

              12 “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be dominated by anything. 13 “Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food”—and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never!
              Ever done anything unrighteous? Are you still going to heaven?



              Paul goes on to say that the Corinthians WERE these things before they were saved.

              But now that they are saved, "ALL THINGS ARE PERMISSIBLE, but NOT ALL THINGS ARE PROFITABLE." This doesn't make the actions in that list any less sinful, but it does point out the change that occurs when we become Christians. Yes, homosexual acts are SIN. So is marrying a divorced person (that's adultery, according to Jesus.) Does your church perform marriages for divorced people? Do you allow unrepentant adulterers in your church? Are YOU apostate?


              So, while what they may be preaching is doctrinally incorrect, it is not APOSTASY, and as such we should seek to be unified so we can (together) raise a higher standard to make us distinct from the Church.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                ,

                Either doctrine matters (requiring some sort of conformity), or it doesn't and thus isn't worth thinking about (anti-intellectualism). And even the RCC is not as doctrinally rigid as you imply here. The church in the US has never been united, because it is largely Protestant, and Protestants have never been united.
                Fundamental doctrine matters. Trinity. Deity of Christ and incarnation. Christ's death being justification and propitiation. Salvation by faith. Bodily resurrection.

                The rest is disputable.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
                  Ever read the rest of the list?

                  How about the rest of the chapter?



                  Ever done anything unrighteous? Are you still going to heaven?



                  Paul goes on to say that the Corinthians WERE these things before they were saved.

                  But now that they are saved, "ALL THINGS ARE PERMISSIBLE, but NOT ALL THINGS ARE PROFITABLE." This doesn't make the actions in that list any less sinful, but it does point out the change that occurs when we become Christians. Yes, homosexual acts are SIN. So is marrying a divorced person (that's adultery, according to Jesus.) Does your church perform marriages for divorced people? Do you allow unrepentant adulterers in your church? Are YOU apostate?


                  So, while what they may be preaching is doctrinally incorrect, it is not APOSTASY, and as such we should seek to be unified so we can (together) raise a higher standard to make us distinct from the Church.
                  There's a difference between ever having done something and doing it on an ongoing basis without making any effort to stop. I would think you would know that as well as anybody, having been around here as long as you have.
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
                    Fundamental doctrine matters. Trinity. Deity of Christ and incarnation. Christ's death being justification and propitiation. Salvation by faith. Bodily resurrection.

                    The rest is disputable.
                    The question is, what doctrine is fundamental, and why? Once a doctrine is determined to be fundamental, is conformity required, or does that 'suppress critical thought'?
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                      There's a difference between ever having done something and doing it on an ongoing basis without making any effort to stop. I would think you would know that as well as anybody, having been around here as long as you have.
                      Where did Jesus say that marrying a divorced person stops being adultery at some point? Does your church refuse to marry divorced people? Or are you just as apostate as those you accuse of being apostate?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        The question is, what doctrine is fundamental, and why? Once a doctrine is determined to be fundamental, is conformity required, or does that 'suppress critical thought'?
                        Jesus only seemed to care about those things required for eternal life. The apostles in their writings are primarily concerned with the same, and with living spiritually mature lives. Why would doctrine about Mary be "fundamental"?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          (Even the RCC, and I assume the EO, allow a couple to make a few unsupported claims and get an "annulment." What did Jesus say about overturning the text of Scripture in favor of man's tradition?)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            You're dodging my questions.
                            Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
                            Jesus only seemed to care about those things required for eternal life. The apostles in their writings are primarily concerned with the same, and with living spiritually mature lives. Why would doctrine about Mary be "fundamental"?
                            Doctrine about Mary would be fundamental to the extent it affects doctrine about her Son.
                            (Even the RCC, and I assume the EO, allow a couple to make a few unsupported claims and get an "annulment." What did Jesus say about overturning the text of Scripture in favor of man's tradition?)
                            Annulment is an RCC fig leaf. The EO tends to allow divorces as a concession to human frailty; ideally they would not occur. There is no official EO doctrine allowing for it.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
                              Where did Jesus say that marrying a divorced person stops being adultery at some point? Does your church refuse to marry divorced people? Or are you just as apostate as those you accuse of being apostate?
                              If the divorce was on biblical grounds, then remarriage of the innocent party is not adultery.
                              That's what
                              - She

                              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                              Stephen R. Donaldson

                              Comment

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