Derail thread on Mary

[Leonhard]

Pope John Paul certainly was enthralled with Mary.

Its hard to be a Catholic and not be enthralled by her. However the positions on the Virgin Mary, of her being coredemptrix and coremediatrix, aren't dogma and weren't defined to be so by St John Paul II.

They don't bind on anyones conscience, so I don't need to defend them in a discussion on infallibility of the pope and the magisterium.

[Leonhard]

Ok, then, let's go here.

Please explain what Catholics mean when they call Mary the mother of God.

Its not really controversial. Any mother does atleast two things to her son: after he comes into being in her womb, she carries him to term inside her and delivers him.

Christians agreed fairly early that Christ was fully man and fully God.

She's therefore Theotokos (The God Bearer) also called Mother of God. Because what she carried inside her womb, while fully human was also fully God.

Beyond that she dutifully raised Jesus from His infancy until his mission. Along with St Joseph, His guardian father.

And she is the source of his humanity (typically along with the father, though since Jesus was conceived by becoming incarnate without the aid of Joseph, the Virgin Mary is the sole material cause of Jesus humanity). He took it materially from her.

God is of couse in the end the ultimate course of anything. This is not denied here.

No Catholic or Eastern Orthodox has ever asserted, nor has this even been held by the uneducated people in old days, that the Virgin Mary was the source of Christ's Divine nature.

But if one denies that the Virgin Mary was Mother of God, one would also implicitly deny that Jesus was God.

Its not even possible to say that the Virgin Mary only carried the humanity of Jesus. Because that would imply that Jesus was merely human at one point and later became God as well. Or might also imply the heresy of Christ not being God while crucified.

So for these reasons, and others, all Christians should honour the Virgin Mary by calling her Mother of God.

[mossrose]

There is no infallible statement on this. Though personally I don't see the problem with this (as its not a doctrine and dogma of the Church I won't defend it though, you're free to believe against it).

Pope John Paul certainly was enthralled with Mary.

[mossrose]

Which part of it? I've seen some protestants claim that its wrong to call the Virgin Mary the Mother of God, not realizing what that would imply about Jesus and His Divinity.

Ok, then, let's go here.

Please explain what Catholics mean when they call Mary the mother of God.

[Leonhard]

We can start with co-redemptrix.

There is no infallible statement on this. Though personally I don't see the problem with this (as its not a doctrine and dogma of the Church I won't defend it though, you're free to believe against it).

[mossrose]

Which part of it? I've seen some protestants claim that its wrong to call the Virgin Mary the Mother of God, not realizing what that would imply about Jesus and His Divinity.

We can start with co-redemptrix.

[Leonhard]

That error would include Mariology...........right?

Which part of it? I've seen some protestants claim that its wrong to call the Virgin Mary the Mother of God, not realizing what that would imply about Jesus and His Divinity.

[mossrose]

And the fact that, despite the utter scumbags (and occasionally actual heretics) that have been popes, the Holy Spirit has miraculously preserved the papacy from officially teaching error.

That error would include Mariology...........right?

[Leonhard]

Depending on your definition of "officially" (and pretending, for the moment, that the filioque is not error).

The filioque is for fraternal discussion between Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox. I'm not even sure we're in real disagreement about it. Depends entirely on what 'proceeds from' means.

[One Bad Pig]

And the fact that, despite the utter scumbags (and occasionally actual heretics) that have been popes, the Holy Spirit has miraculously preserved the papacy from officially teaching error.

Depending on your definition of "officially" (and pretending, for the moment, that the filioque is not error).

[Spartacus]

There have been renegade popes in the past.

Its ok, It was just a hypothetical I thought of.

And the fact that, despite the utter scumbags (and occasionally actual heretics) that have been popes, the Holy Spirit has miraculously preserved the papacy from officially teaching error.