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Discussion on matters of general mainstream Christian churches. What are the differences between Catholics and protestants? How has the charismatic movement affected the church? Are Southern baptists different from fundamentalist baptists? It is also for discussions about the nature of the church.

This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and theists. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions. Additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101.

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Statement of Faith discussion: Salvation of man

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  • Statement of Faith discussion: Salvation of man

    Salvation of Man
    We believe all men have sinned and fallen short of God's glory and that all men are in need of salvation. We believe sinners cannot be saved by any work of their own. The Good News of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection is the only power that can change sinners and give them eternal life. We believe that Christ’s sacrifice was sufficient to purchase our salvation when we believe in Him with a real and genuine faith



    In the same vein as the Scripture discussion, I am looking to hone this to cover the accepted orthodox positions while rejecting heretical interpretations.
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    Stephen R. Donaldson

  • #2
    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    We believe sinners cannot be saved by any work of their own.
    Being a fledgling Catholic who's just getting his sea legs, I'd need Spartacus to vouch for this one, but as far as I understand Catholic doctrine this statement is not inconsistent with Catholic thought. Our works have natural merit on its own, but only supernatural merit imparted to them by Christ, when we do them in a state of grace.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
      We believe that Christ’s sacrifice was sufficient to purchase our salvation when we believe in Him with a real and genuine faith
      This might be the statement where the rubber will hit the road for Catholics and Orthodox, as there needs to be a conversion of life in response to coming to faith.

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      • #4
        Does there need to be some indication that acceptance of Christ's sacrifice is necessary? I'm just thinking of our universalist friends.
        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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        • #5
          We are saved by grace, and not by our own power. Leo my understanding was always the natural works have no power on their own we can do nothing apart from the Grace of Christ but we should strive to live our salvation through prayer and works of faith lest we be disqualified or fall into mortal sin. I have no problem recognizing Christ's work on the cross is where this grace comes from.
          A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
          George Bernard Shaw

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          • #6
            But women are all OK, right?

            I'm kinda just posting for the little green checkmark so that I spot this thread more easily in the new posts search-- I'm not studied up on soteriology as much as I should be, and I may have to wait until my memories of apologetics r.e. salvation come back to me.
            Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
              But women are all OK, right?

              I'm kinda just posting for the little green checkmark so that I spot this thread more easily in the new posts search-- I'm not studied up on soteriology as much as I should be, and I may have to wait until my memories of apologetics r.e. salvation come back to me.
              If you click the word "settings" at the top right of any page, it will give you a list of all threads you are subscribed to, which should be any that you have posted in. Much easier than hunting through new posts list

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                Salvation of Man
                We believe all men have sinned and fallen short of God's glory and that all men are in need of salvation. We believe sinners cannot be saved by any work of their own. The Good News of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection is the only power that can change sinners and give them eternal life. We believe that Christ’s sacrifice was sufficient to purchase our salvation when we believe in Him with a real and genuine faith
                I personally would consider changing "The Good News of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection is the only power that can change sinners and give them eternal life." to read "Christ's death, burial, and resurrection is the only way by which God forgives sinners and gives them eternal life." Just a quick reaction.
                "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                  This might be the statement where the rubber will hit the road for Catholics and Orthodox, as there needs to be a conversion of life in response to coming to faith.
                  In my opinion, there cannot be a real and genuine faith without a conversion of life. True faith will naturally produce works.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    In my opinion, there cannot be a real and genuine faith without a conversion of life. True faith will naturally produce works.


                    Not even Luther, who was adamant that it is faith alone which justifies, went so far as to suggest that genuine faith would not result in works. Instead his position was that true faith cannot but result in works, as his introduction to Romans show:

                    Source: Luther's definition of faith, excerpted from his introduction to Romans


                    Faith is not what some people think it is. Their human dream
                    is a delusion. Because they observe that faith is not followed by
                    good works or a better life, they fall into error, even though they
                    speak and hear much about faith. ``Faith is not enough,'' they
                    say, ``You must do good works, you must be pious to be saved.''
                    They think that, when you hear the gospel, you start working,
                    creating by your own strength a thankful heart which says, ``I
                    believe.'' That is what they think true faith is. But, because
                    this is a human idea, a dream, the heart never learns anything
                    from it, so it does nothing and reform doesn't come from this
                    `faith,' either.

                    Instead, faith is God's work in us, that changes us and gives
                    new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us
                    completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits,
                    our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with
                    it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this
                    faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn't
                    stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone
                    asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without
                    ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an
                    unbeliever.
                    He stumbles around and looks for faith and good
                    works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are.
                    Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many
                    words.

                    Faith is a living, bold trust in God's grace, so certain of
                    God's favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it.
                    Such confidence and knowledge of God's grace makes you happy,
                    joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The
                    Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you
                    freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve
                    everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who
                    has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to
                    separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from
                    fire! Therefore, watch out for your own false ideas and guard
                    against good-for-nothing gossips, who think they're smart enough
                    to define faith and works, but really are the greatest of fools.
                    Ask God to work faith in you, or you will remain forever without
                    faith, no matter what you wish, say or can do.


                    http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/...ther-faith.txt

                    © Copyright Original Source

                    ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      Being a fledgling Catholic who's just getting his sea legs, I'd need Spartacus to vouch for this one, but as far as I understand Catholic doctrine this statement is not inconsistent with Catholic thought. Our works have natural merit on its own, but only supernatural merit imparted to them by Christ, when we do them in a state of grace.
                      Our works before justification do not merit us anything. However good they may be. Unless we are united with Christ, and therefore live by His grace, merit is impossible, for He is the sole Source of grace in His Church. And what the Church calls merit is not merit in the proper sense, for merit in the proper sense is impossible to creatures. Instead, it is merit in a looser sense, that is based entirely on God's grace. We are able to deserve a reward for good works done in Christ, only because the reward, the doing, the good works, and Christ Himself, come to us from the sheer grace of God.

                      I think that is what the Council of Trent teaches on these matters, paraphrased.

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