Announcement

Collapse

Ecclesiology 201 Guidelines

Discussion on matters of general mainstream Christian churches. What are the differences between Catholics and protestants? How has the charismatic movement affected the church? Are Southern baptists different from fundamentalist baptists? It is also for discussions about the nature of the church.

This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and theists. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions. Additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Question for Catholics on the Scriptures

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    OK, after thinking about this all weekend and the input given here, I have this revision:

    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    In trying to briefly clarify a few points on our statement of faith for TWeb, I have composed the following:



    The Scriptures
    The Bible, consisting of the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments (And to some traditions, the Deuterocanonical books), comprises the one and only Word of God that are called "the Holy scriptures", and are authoritative sources for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness, while not excluding the role that tradition plays in decreeing proper interpretation of scripture. They reveal the will of God concerning us in things necessary to our salvation


    Hopefully that gets the agreement moving down the road.
    Last edited by Bill the Cat; 04-06-2015, 04:21 PM.
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    Stephen R. Donaldson

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
      The Scriptures
      The Bible, consisting of the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments, comprises the one and only Word of God that are called "the Holy scriptures", and are authoritative sources for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness, while not excluding the role that tradition plays in decreeing proper interpretation of scripture. They reveal the will of God concerning us in things necessary to our salvation
      The "66 books" part will still be an issue of contention. There are numerous orthodox sects of Christianity which subscribe to more than these books, including the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Ethiopian Orthodox churches.
      "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
      --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
        The "66 books" part will still be an issue of contention. There are numerous orthodox sects of Christianity which subscribe to more than these books, including the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Ethiopian Orthodox churches.
        I don't think (could be wrong) that they consider the apocrypha to be inspired scripture, but more of "history"

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          I don't think (could be wrong) that they consider the apocrypha to be inspired scripture, but more of "history"
          No, they most certainly do consider the deuterocanonical books to be divinely inspired scripture. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

          Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church

          120 It was by the apostolic Tradition that the Church discerned which writings are to be included in the list of the sacred books.

          This complete list is called the canon of Scripture. It includes 46 books for the Old Testament (45 if we count Jeremiah and Lamentations as one) and 27 for the New.

          The Old Testament: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1 and 2 Samuel, 1 and 2 Kings, 1 and 2 Chronicles, Ezra and Nehemiah, Tobit, Judith, Esther, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Song of Songs, the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Baruch, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zachariah and Malachi.

          121 The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value, for the Old Covenant has never been revoked.

          © Copyright Original Source



          Emphasis added.
          "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
          --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            I don't think (could be wrong) that they consider the apocrypha to be inspired scripture, but more of "history"
            Boxing Pythagoras is entirely right on this one.

            Comment


            • #21
              There. How is that?

              The Scriptures
              The Bible, consisting of the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments (And to some traditions, the Deuterocanonical books), comprises the one and only Word of God that are called "the Holy scriptures", and are authoritative sources for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness, while not excluding the role that tradition plays in decreeing proper interpretation of scripture. They reveal the will of God concerning us in things necessary to our salvation
              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • #22
                I am reporting Bill the Cat to Jack Chick.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  I am reporting Bill the Cat to Jack Chick.
                  His cartoon antics don't scare me!

                  23ac3-pew2.jpg
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                    There. How is that?

                    The Scriptures
                    The Bible, consisting of the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments (And to some traditions, the Deuterocanonical books), comprises the one and only Word of God that are called "the Holy scriptures", and are authoritative sources for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness, while not excluding the role that tradition plays in decreeing proper interpretation of scripture. They reveal the will of God concerning us in things necessary to our salvation
                    This looks closer, now. Personally, I would not like being relegated to a parenthetical if I were Roman Catholic or Orthodox, but that's more of an aesthetic judgment.

                    This wording-- or similar-- would now cover the vast majority of orthodox Christians. There do remain some exceptions, of course. For example, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church includes 1 Enoch amongst its Old Testament canon, which is not one of the books referred to by the term "Deuterocanonical;" and it also includes the Didascalia in its New Testament canon, which most other Orthodox sects do not.

                    However, if you are not worried about the Ethiopian Orthodox, or other rare exceptions to the more generally accepted canons, I might suggest this wording:

                    The Scriptures
                    The Bible, consisting of the Old and New Testaments, comprises the one and only Holy Scriptures. These Holy Scriptures are the Word of God and are authoritative sources for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness, while not excluding the role that tradition plays in decreeing proper interpretation of scripture. They reveal the will of God concerning us in things necessary to our salvation. The canon of the Old Testament comprises only those books found in the Masoretic Hebrew or Septuagint canons. The canon of the New Testament comprises only the four 1st Century gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, the 1st Century Pauline corpus, the epistle to the Hebrews, the Johannine epistles, the 1st Century Petrine corpus, James, Jude, and the Revelation of John.
                    "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                    --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Psst... this thread is in Christianity 201. Christian only participation As much as I appreciate your input, please remember the posting restrictions and get permission from a mod first.

                      That said...

                      Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                      This looks closer, now. Personally, I would not like being relegated to a parenthetical if I were Roman Catholic or Orthodox, but that's more of an aesthetic judgment.

                      This wording-- or similar-- would now cover the vast majority of orthodox Christians. There do remain some exceptions, of course. For example, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church includes 1 Enoch amongst its Old Testament canon, which is not one of the books referred to by the term "Deuterocanonical;" and it also includes the Didascalia in its New Testament canon, which most other Orthodox sects do not.

                      However, if you are not worried about the Ethiopian Orthodox, or other rare exceptions to the more generally accepted canons, I might suggest this wording:

                      The Scriptures
                      The Bible, consisting of the Old and New Testaments, comprises the one and only Holy Scriptures. These Holy Scriptures are the Word of God and are authoritative sources for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness, while not excluding the role that tradition plays in decreeing proper interpretation of scripture. They reveal the will of God concerning us in things necessary to our salvation. The canon of the Old Testament comprises only those books found in the Masoretic Hebrew or Septuagint canons. The canon of the New Testament comprises only the four 1st Century gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, the 1st Century Pauline corpus, the epistle to the Hebrews, the Johannine epistles, the 1st Century Petrine corpus, James, Jude, and the Revelation of John.
                      I think that's a tidbit too wordy. I'm not too concerned about a group that we more than likely will never encounter a member as a mod candidate.
                      That's what
                      - She

                      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                      Stephen R. Donaldson

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                        There. How is that?

                        The Scriptures
                        The Bible, consisting of the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments (And to some traditions, the Deuterocanonical books), comprises the one and only Word of God that are called "the Holy scriptures", and are authoritative sources for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness, while not excluding the role that tradition plays in decreeing proper interpretation of scripture. They reveal the will of God concerning us in things necessary to our salvation
                        I think I would shorten that a bit to "...while not excluding the role of tradition."
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                          Psst... this thread is in Christianity 201. Christian only participation As much as I appreciate your input, please remember the posting restrictions and get permission from a mod first.
                          In my very first post in the thread, I acknowledged that I know I'm not supposed to engage in discussions in the Ecclesiology forum, though I felt I honestly had something to contribute. If I've overstepped my bounds, just let me know, and I'll leave the discussion amicably.

                          That said... I think that's a tidbit too wordy. I'm not too concerned about a group that we more than likely will never encounter a member as a mod candidate.
                          Perhaps, then, you could omit both the explicit definition of canon and an explicit count of the books. Simply stating, "The Bible, consisting of the Old and New Testaments, comprises the one and only Holy Scriptures," is concise and yet clear enough to eliminate things like The Book of Mormon and other such texts, while still leaving the specifics of the canon open for orthodox discussion.

                          The Scriptures
                          The Bible, consisting of the Old and New Testaments, comprises the one and only Holy Scriptures. These Holy Scriptures are the Word of God and are authoritative sources for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness, while not excluding the role of tradition. They reveal the will of God concerning us in things necessary to our salvation.


                          EDIT: Included OBP's suggestion for brevity.
                          "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                          --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                            In my very first post in the thread, I acknowledged that I know I'm not supposed to engage in discussions in the Ecclesiology forum, though I felt I honestly had something to contribute. If I've overstepped my bounds, just let me know, and I'll leave the discussion amicably.
                            No need to exit at this point. Just for future notice, just send me or one of the other mods a PM first. We do appreciate your input here and your membership on the site

                            Perhaps, then, you could omit both the explicit definition of canon and an explicit count of the books. Simply stating, "The Bible, consisting of the Old and New Testaments, comprises the one and only Holy Scriptures," is concise and yet clear enough to eliminate things like The Book of Mormon and other such texts, while still leaving the specifics of the canon open for orthodox discussion.

                            The Scriptures
                            The Bible, consisting of the Old and New Testaments, comprises the one and only Holy Scriptures. These Holy Scriptures are the Word of God and are authoritative sources for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness, while not excluding the role of tradition. They reveal the will of God concerning us in things necessary to our salvation.


                            EDIT: Included OBP's suggestion for brevity.
                            I think that looks about like what I wanted. I'll wait for Spartacus and Catholicity's thumbs up before I add this to the suggested SOF thread in our super secret area.
                            That's what
                            - She

                            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                            Stephen R. Donaldson

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                              No need to exit at this point. Just for future notice, just send me or one of the other mods a PM first. We do appreciate your input here and your membership on the site
                              Will do!

                              I think that looks about like what I wanted. I'll wait for Spartacus and Catholicity's thumbs up before I add this to the suggested SOF thread in our super secret area.
                              Glad to have been a help!
                              "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                              --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                The Scriptures
                                The Bible, consisting of the Old and New Testaments, comprises the one and only Holy Scriptures. These Holy Scriptures are the Word of God and are authoritative sources for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness, while not excluding the role of tradition. They reveal the will of God concerning us in things necessary to our salvation.


                                I think the clause on tradition is not strictly necessary. You've removed the problematic assertions about the exclusivity of scriptural authority, so there's no real need to counterbalance them with an awkward (and the phrasing does strike me as awkward) concession to Catholics and Orthodox.
                                Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by Dave L, 01-09-2022, 12:07 PM
                                93 responses
                                430 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Christianbookworm  
                                Started by Dave L, 01-09-2022, 07:14 AM
                                88 responses
                                319 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Cow Poke  
                                Started by mossrose, 11-07-2021, 09:28 PM
                                149 responses
                                1,067 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post Thoughtful Monk  
                                Working...
                                X