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Question for Catholics on the Scriptures

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  • Question for Catholics on the Scriptures

    In trying to briefly clarify a few points on our statement of faith for TWeb, I have composed the following:



    The Scriptures
    All of the Scriptures (the Bible consisting of Old and New Testaments) comprise the one and only inspired Word of God, and are the final authoritative source for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness. They reveal the will of God concerning us in all things necessary to our salvation




    I'm looking at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13635b.htm

    I don't see anything in there that would contradict what I wrote for that part, but there has been some question on how a Roman Catholic would interpret that. How would you word it as a brief article of faith? It needs to be concise but inclusive of Protestant and non-Protestant views.
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    Stephen R. Donaldson

  • #2
    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    In trying to briefly clarify a few points on our statement of faith for TWeb, I have composed the following:



    The Scriptures
    All of the Scriptures (the Bible consisting of Old and New Testaments) comprise the one and only inspired Word of God, and are the final authoritative source for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness. They reveal the will of God concerning us in all things necessary to our salvation




    I'm looking at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13635b.htm

    I don't see anything in there that would contradict what I wrote for that part, but there has been some question on how a Roman Catholic would interpret that. How would you word it as a brief article of faith? It needs to be concise but inclusive of Protestant and non-Protestant views.
    I know that, as I am not currently a Christian, I am not supposed to participate in the Ecclesiology forum, but I am rather familiar with Catholic positions on Scripture and the Magisterium. So, if my participation is inappropriate, I will fully accept whatever moderator actions come my way.

    I don't think that the RCC would agree with the phrase "one and only" in reference to Biblical inspiration, as the Roman Rite also considers Tradition to be a source of the Word of God. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
    Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church

    81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit, and [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Similarly, the phrase "final authoritative source" would likely be objectionable to a Catholic. While the RCC certainly considers Sacred Scripture to be authoritative, the final word on the interpretation of that Scripture belongs to the Magisterium of the Church:
    Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church

    85 The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ. This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Finally, the phrase "in all things necessary to our salvation" might be objectionable to a Roman Catholic.
    Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church

    82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honoured with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.

    © Copyright Original Source

    Last edited by Boxing Pythagoras; 03-31-2015, 01:48 PM.
    "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
    --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

    Comment


    • #3
      It's not like there's even agreement on what works make up Scripture, let alone what its function is. I'm not sure why it's necessary for Scripture to be part of the Statement of Faith not least because a belief about what Scripture is and does isn't found anywhere in any of the major common Creeds.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Paprika View Post
        It's not like there's even agreement on what works make up Scripture, let alone what its function is. I'm not sure why it's necessary for Scripture to be part of the Statement of Faith not least because a belief about what Scripture is and does isn't found anywhere in any of the major common Creeds.
        You must be unfamiliar with Mormonism, Islam, and a host of other groups who claim that their book is scripture too.
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
          You must be unfamiliar with Mormonism, Islam, and a host of other groups who claim that their book is scripture too.
          I presume that when you have a point you will make it. Until then, I wait.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Paprika View Post
            I presume that when you have a point you will make it. Until then, I wait.
            How about get out of my thread.
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • #7
              This thread is for catholics to respond to, not for debate. Paprika, stay out of this thread and anyone else who has no actual relevant data.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                In trying to briefly clarify a few points on our statement of faith for TWeb, I have composed the following:



                The Scriptures
                All of the Scriptures (the Bible consisting of Old and New Testaments) comprise the one and only inspired Word of God, and are the final authoritative source for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness. They reveal the will of God concerning us in all things necessary to our salvation




                I'm looking at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13635b.htm

                I don't see anything in there that would contradict what I wrote for that part, but there has been some question on how a Roman Catholic would interpret that. How would you word it as a brief article of faith? It needs to be concise but inclusive of Protestant and non-Protestant views.
                don't have the energy atm to go through this as deeply as I'd like to (ideally, I'd be reading through Dei Verbum for comparison), and I think BP basically covered the bases, so what I'll do is go through the statement and underline the bits that make me feel uneasy:

                All of the Scriptures (the Bible consisting of Old and New Testaments) comprise the one and only inspired Word of God, and are the final authoritative source for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness. They reveal the will of God concerning us in all things necessary to our salvation
                Jesus is the Word of God; the Scriptures describe God's revelation of Himself to his chosen people Israel and then to the whole world, but Jesus Himself is not wholly contained by even these books. The Church (the ontological reality, not just the hierarchy) gave us the Bible, not the other way around. God chose His people and gave them His commands long before any of them wrote it down or thought to collect it in one book. Catholic doctrine places a big emphasis on the Bible (more than I've articulated, certainly, which is why I linked to Dei Verbum, which is more authoritative than my half-formed impression) but I'm not sure if there's a way for you to make this statement say what you seem to want it to say, and for Catholics to sign on to it, without some equivocation.
                Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                  don't have the energy atm to go through this as deeply as I'd like to (ideally, I'd be reading through Dei Verbum for comparison), and I think BP basically covered the bases, so what I'll do is go through the statement and underline the bits that make me feel uneasy:



                  Jesus is the Word of God; the Scriptures describe God's revelation of Himself to his chosen people Israel and then to the whole world, but Jesus Himself is not wholly contained by even these books. The Church (the ontological reality, not just the hierarchy) gave us the Bible, not the other way around. God chose His people and gave them His commands long before any of them wrote it down or thought to collect it in one book. Catholic doctrine places a big emphasis on the Bible (more than I've articulated, certainly, which is why I linked to Dei Verbum, which is more authoritative than my half-formed impression) but I'm not sure if there's a way for you to make this statement say what you seem to want it to say, and for Catholics to sign on to it, without some equivocation.
                  I see what you are saying Spart. I think it can be accommodating without blatant equivocation, but I see your point on how the wording will have to be a bit more loose. Let me think about it for a few days and reword the statement. Would you mind reviewing the rewrite when I put it up?
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                    I see what you are saying Spart. I think it can be accommodating without blatant equivocation, but I see your point on how the wording will have to be a bit more loose. Let me think about it for a few days and reword the statement. Would you mind reviewing the rewrite when I put it up?
                    Sure, I'll keep an eye out for it.
                    Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Have you looked up any ecumenical statements on Scripture? I imagine they might help you find better wording.
                      Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                        Have you looked up any ecumenical statements on Scripture? I imagine they might help you find better wording.
                        Just the article from New Advent. I'll be looking for more later today. Working on building an isolated network for our warehouse now. billbricks.gif
                        That's what
                        - She

                        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                        Stephen R. Donaldson

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          If I recollect, scriptures is the final authority albeit the interpreter is the papacy on dogma, though the church recognizes private revelation so long as it is consistent with the gospel. I have not found false teaching in the rcc and I've rad and studied the dogma of the catechism. The protestants and catholics certainly agree on the concepts of the essentials. This is how i have looked at it.
                          A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
                          George Bernard Shaw

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            and are the final authoritative source for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness.
                            As an Orthodox Catholic, the bolded part makes me cringe a little. My belief is that the Church is the final authority on how the Bible is to be interpreted. Though I will say that there is a lot of room for interpretation on many minor things and that the Church hasn't spoken with final authority about every little thing. In other words, there is theologoumena.
                            "Concentrate on what you have to do. Fix your eyes on it. Remind yourself that your task is to be a good human being; remind yourself what nature demands of people. Then do it, without hesitation, and speak the truth as you see it. But with kindness. With humility. Without hypocrisy."
                            -Marcus Aurelius

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by T-Shirt Ninja View Post
                              As an Orthodox Catholic, the bolded part makes me cringe a little. My belief is that the Church is the final authority on how the Bible is to be interpreted. Though I will say that there is a lot of room for interpretation on many minor things and that the Church hasn't spoken with final authority about every little thing. In other words, there is theologoumena.
                              Good point. It is the church which came first, and selected the scriptures to be considered authoritative. What makes this a thorny proposition is that Protestants don't agree that the Church is authoritative, and Roman Catholics have additional decrees which they consider authoritative. The aim here is to write something inclusive of Protestants, Orthodox and Roman Catholics, but exclusive of those who add their own scriptures or prophecies to what is authoritative.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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