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Discussion on matters of general mainstream Christian churches. What are the differences between Catholics and protestants? How has the charismatic movement affected the church? Are Southern baptists different from fundamentalist baptists? It is also for discussions about the nature of the church.

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  • #46
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post
    John 1:17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

    See what happens when the mysteries of Scripture are unlocked:

    Luke 24:25And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26“Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” 27Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

    28And they approached the village where they were going, and He acted as though He were going farther. 29But they urged Him, saying, “Stay with us, for it is getting toward evening, and the day is now nearly over.” So He went in to stay with them. 30When He had reclined at the table with them, He took the bread and blessed it, and breaking it, He began giving it to them. 31Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and He vanished from their sight. 32They said to one another, “Were not our hearts burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road, while He was explaining the Scriptures to us?” 33And they got up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem, and found gathered together the eleven and those who were with them, 34saying, “The Lord has really risen and has appeared to Simon.” 35They began to relate their experiences on the road and how He was recognized by them in the breaking of the bread.
    Yes, the realization that they should've been listening more closely to what Jesus had been saying before rather than trying to fit what He said to their preconceived notions.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by footwasher View Post
      This is where you see the herd mentality at work, the desire to preserve the status quo, not rock the boat, unreasoning loyalty to a dominant group's view:

      Acts 17:5But the Jews, becoming jealous and taking along some wicked men from the market place, formed a mob and set the city in an uproar; and attacking the house of Jason, they were seeking to bring them out to the people. 6When they did not find them, they began dragging Jason and some brethren before the city authorities, shouting, “These men who have upset the world have come here also;


      This is where you see the fair treatment of a presentation of the truth, because in the sending of Christ, God revealed the hidden truths of the old covenant and provided the Lamb for the sacrifice, as prophesied by Abraham, a fair treatment that manifests the image of God, because in God is manifested all that which is noble, justice, mercy and love:

      Acts 17:11Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

      Hear and introspect
      Listen and reflect
      Review and check against Scripture

      Not exactly the herd mentality you assert.

      That would be the wolf pack at Thessalonika.

      PS Denying yourself isn't hanging up your brain on the hat rack when you enter the church...

      Complaining about "herd mentality" and "individualism" in the same thread.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by footwasher View Post
        And start on the tranquilisers you feed your flock?

        ;-)
        You haven't got a clue what I preach to my congregation, FW, so this is just jackassery on your part. You are revealing more and more that you're just a here.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          You haven't got a clue what I preach to my congregation, FW, so this is just jackassery on your part. You are revealing more and more that you're just a here.
          Nah. He's just going tit for tat with you here AFAICS. I don't think he's trolling, simply very, very convinced that he's correct.

          In any case, he seems to think that anyone who's preaching from the pulpit without allowing dialogue with the congregation is preaching "tranquilizers."
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            Nah. He's just going tit for tat with you here AFAICS. I don't think he's trolling, simply very, very convinced that he's correct.

            In any case, he seems to think that anyone who's preaching from the pulpit without allowing dialogue with the congregation is preaching "tranquilizers."
            Then I shall leave him in your most capable cloven hooves.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

              Complaining about "herd mentality" and raising "individualism" in the same thread.
              Did the Thessalonians check Scripture or did they follow the status quo of the collectivist society they lived in, the synagogue? That's right they flubbed, they didn't.

              They were an aberrant for the Jewish model, which insisted on every individual to work through Torah for himself.

              Yankee Doodles pride themselves on their right to question Da Man, even resisting all change to the constitutional right to bear arms, believing it to be the last resort in not being forced to obey the dictates of collectivist society. But then, we aren't YD's, we are lemmings. Ja?
              Last edited by footwasher; 03-25-2015, 08:10 PM.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                Did the Thessalonians check Scripture or did they follow the status quo of the collectivist society they lived in, the synagogue? That's right they flubbed, they didn't.

                They were an aberrant for the Jewish model, which insisted on every individual to work through Torah for himself.

                Yankee Doodles pride themselves on their right to question Da Man, even resisting all change to the constitutional right to bear arms, believing it to be the last resort in not being forced to obey the dictates of collectivist society. But then, we aren't YD's, we are lemmings. Ja?
                When you don't know the first thing about social science, it usually best to not to speak about it.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  When you don't know the first thing about social science, it usually best to not to speak about it.
                  He claimed I railed against individualism. I didn't. So direct your criticism to HIM.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                    He claimed I railed against individualism. I didn't. So direct your criticism to HIM.
                    Yes, he appears to have misunderstood your post (which is understandable; your posts are hardly models of clarity). That does not excuse altering his post when replying to it or your posting ignorant nonsense in response.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      Yes, he appears to have misunderstood your post (which is understandable; your posts are hardly models of clarity). That does not excuse altering his post when replying to it or your posting ignorant nonsense in response.
                      Show where I have done either. Or the accusation of posting ignorant nonsense applies to your posts.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        Yes, he appears to have misunderstood your post (which is understandable; your posts are hardly models of clarity). That does not excuse altering his post when replying to it or your posting ignorant nonsense in response.
                        Yes, it looks like I just might have misunderstood. Here's where I got it though.

                        "Christianity has always been known for its ability to nurture individualism, linked as it is with its strong roots in Judaism. Maybe a thinking Christianity will encourage enquiry from the intellectually inclined blue states."

                        He seemed to be against it there. He then complained about "herd mentality".

                        footwasher, I apologize if I misunderstood you.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                          Yes, it looks like I just might have misunderstood. Here's where I got it though.

                          "Christianity has always been known for its ability to nurture individualism, linked as it is with its strong roots in Judaism. Maybe a thinking Christianity will encourage enquiry from the intellectually inclined blue states."

                          He seemed to be against it there. He then complained about "herd mentality".

                          footwasher, I apologize if I misunderstood you.
                          Okay, thats more clear now.

                          I tend to make jumps in my conclusions that are uncalled for, partly because I am trying to cover more ground.

                          I should I have been more clear:


                          "Christianity has always been known for its ability to nurture individualism, linked as it is with its strong roots in Judaism.

                          Judaism had a magisterial body that overruled the deliberations of the various rabbinical schools that existed in first century Jerusalem, the Sanhedrin a type of Supreme Court. But then, as now, without the existence of the Sanhedrin, the recommendation from the supreme authority of a rabbinical group, was always to consult with the immediate leaders of the factions of which the enquirer was a member, its local rabbi, or poser (a lower level leader) for the final view. On top of that it was beholden on the enquirer to study Torah and satisfy himself as well. So that was a very decentralised form of functioning.

                          Today the Christianity that exists in the red states is seen to be a top heavy, fundamentalistic, dogmatic, fanatical, unreasoned, clannish, interested in presenting a united front, brooking no dissent, dismissive of historical evidence that shed new light on teachings and functioning of early Christianity, appealing to people with a lower level of education,who are open to simplistic doctrine, doctrines that would be seen by better educated audience as incoherent: basically a western version of the Taliban.

                          The conservative, fundamentalist view is reasonable in the sense that giving room for discussion and dissent can open a big can of worms, but the solution is not stasis and paralysis. The solution is matching scholarship with scholarship, and that too, the right type of scholarship. Assertions must first pass the rational and natural tests, and THEN add to it the divine and the supernatural. A richer view. Not the convenient one.

                          Right now the methodology is to treat theology as a science and the proving of the hypotheses through falsification (see the various references to Scottish Common Sense Realism in articles by D B Wallace and others for information on this topic) this falsification based on grammatico historical theories. Grammar, linguistics, lexicons are too volatile to base theories on.

                          Historic criticism lends itself better to the task. The study of historical documents describing the paradigms discussed about in the text. QMMT4 discovered at Qumran indirectly tells us that the gospel is a part of a narrative, the concluding part. Even though it does not discuss Christianity directly, the document IS discussing the text common to both Judaism and Christianity and the conclusions in it mirror exactly the pattern found in the New Testament, listing out halakah, works of the law, tell tale markings of who are the people who are IN the group termed the People of God, how they walk, the concept of semitic totality: circumcision and other cultic markers for the people of Qumran, and faith in Christ, for the people taught by Paul.

                          Maybe more of this form of study will reveal a new thinking Christianity to the intellectually inclined part of the world.

                          Maybe a thinking Christianity will even encourage enquiry from the intellectually inclined blue states.
                          …………

                          My apologies for making you think that thinking Christianity is the right form of Christianity, as opposed to individualism.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                            Well they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. All that happens when you attend a church with pulpit centred meetings is that you contributed in perpetuating the errors from a system that has no checks and balances.

                            As for meeting in small groups and cultivating error, I think this devalues the worth of the follower of Christ and reduces his input to clannish loyalty seen in the red states: "I got your back, bro".

                            Christianity has always been known for its ability to nurture individualism, linked as it is with its strong roots in Judaism. Maybe a thinking Christianity will encourage enquiry from the intellectually inclined blue states.
                            Apparently I wasn't clear. My respect for the office of the pastor means I will not attempt to fill it without a calling from God. I have no problems with telling authority that I think they are in error. I will not have blood required of me at the end. (Ezekiel 33:6)

                            I do agree that small groups may tend to make people conform. I have been to Bible studies where people bring up a slightly different but Biblically correct view and beaten back into the group's position on the matter. The free flow on TWeb doesn't always happen in small groups or even churches. Pastors can get nervous in the face of different positions from their own.
                            "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                            "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                              Apparently I wasn't clear. My respect for the office of the pastor means I will not attempt to fill it without a calling from God. I have no problems with telling authority that I think they are in error. I will not have blood required of me at the end. (Ezekiel 33:6)

                              I do agree that small groups may tend to make people conform. I have been to Bible studies where people bring up a slightly different but Biblically correct view and beaten back into the group's position on the matter. The free flow on TWeb doesn't always happen in small groups or even churches. Pastors can get nervous in the face of different positions from their own.
                              There is no authoritative ministry of pastor, the teaching comes through Christ in you and Christ in the other believers.

                              John 6:45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

                              1 John 2:27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                                There is no authoritative ministry of pastor
                                Sounds like somebody has a problem with authority overall.

                                Heb 13:17 Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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