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Discussion on matters of general mainstream Christian churches. What are the differences between Catholics and protestants? How has the charismatic movement affected the church? Are Southern baptists different from fundamentalist baptists? It is also for discussions about the nature of the church.
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and theists. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions. Additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and theists. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions. Additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101.
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Apocryphal Books
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You still are unhelpful. I gave seven main RC "additions" to the Tanakh. You gave eight by double-counting Sirach and Ecclesiasticus, the same book. Then you failed to admit that the Roman Catholic canon also includes the additions to Daniel and Esther. To further confuse the issue, there is also the Epistle to Jeremy which is printed in Catholic Bibles (and thus not separately counted) as Ch. 6 of Baruch. Their are other books called officially Apocrypha by Anglicans and the Eastern Orthodox, but I would think you could at least keep straight what pertains to "Catholicity"!
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Originally posted by Adam View PostThat's not very helpful. So start with Tobit then, let's add the similar Judith. The wisdom books of the Protestant Apocrypha (the books Roman Catholics DO NOT call Apocrypha) are Sirach (or Ecclesiasticus, not to be confused with Ecclesiastes of the Tanach) and well, Wisdom. That's four so far. "Our" next pair is simply First Maccabees and Second Maccabees. Then seven would be Baruch, a follow-on to Jeremiah. Thereafter things get messy, what with the additions to Daniel and the additions to Esther.
Also messy is what Anglicans (Episcopalians in the U. S.) consider Apocrypha. They also include I Esdras and II Esdras and the Prayer of Manasseh and the Letter of Jeremiah (Baruch ch. 6, not in Catholic bibles). Eastern Orthodox also "mess" things up, but generally similar to Roman Catholics and Anglicans.
In time when I am able I can closer analyze some of the other books. I do know the Deuterocanon was included in the Greek Jewish Scriptures.
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That's not very helpful. So start with Tobit then, let's add the similar Judith. The wisdom books of the Protestant Apocrypha (the books Roman Catholics DO NOT call Apocrypha) are Sirach (or Ecclesiasticus, not to be confused with Ecclesiastes of the Tanach) and well, Wisdom. That's four so far. "Our" next pair is simply First Maccabees and Second Maccabees. Then seven would be Baruch, a follow-on to Jeremiah. Thereafter things get messy, what with the additions to Daniel and the additions to Esther.
Also messy is what Anglicans (Episcopalians in the U. S.) consider Apocrypha. They also include I Esdras and II Esdras and the Prayer of Manasseh and the Letter of Jeremiah (Baruch ch. 6, not in Catholic bibles). Eastern Orthodox also "mess" things up, but generally similar to Roman Catholics and Anglicans.
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So I am going to necro this thread. The best place to get started if you want to read them would be to purchase a copy of the 72 book translation. I have a Douay Rheims and if you're good with Elizabethan than Douay Rheims is perfect. For a little more modern try the RSV with the Apocrypha Or the NAB. The price is roughly 10-15 and you can get the notes. I just was rereading Tobit. Tobit is interesting because of the introduction of the angel Raphael, the exorcism via sacrificed animal parts the names of mystical beings and the wisdom from family line to family line. I am trying myself to read this and study it right now. It makes some reference s and comparison to Job. Since my time is short for myself I am trying to figure out why its considered inaccurate by protestants or inconsistent. It reiterates a great deal of Jewish living and later Christian living. OK. That's all my thoughts at least on Tobit for now.
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It looks like mostly just the Wisdom of Solomon (the Prayer of Azariah from the Greek additions to Daniel is used on the Saturday before Easter, and the Prayer of Manasseh is used in Great Compline during Lent).
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Originally posted by Zymologist View PostI'm not sure if this is in the right section, so move it if necessary.
This is just a general question about the Apocryphal books, and their place within Christianity. I've read the book of Enoch, but I'm very ignorant of the Apocryphal books otherwise. It's my understanding that both the Roman Catholics and Orthodox consider them canonical--correct?
The Roman Catholic canon is well-defined - whatever is in the Vulgate is canonical.
The Orthodox canon is rather less well-defined, as no council has opined on the content of the Old Testament canon AFAIK. There is also no Old Testament lectionary in Orthodox tradition, though pieces of the Old Testament are used regularly (mostly at Vespers). I'll have to do some digging to see which books of the deuterocanon are used in readings.
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Apocryphal Books
I'm not sure if this is in the right section, so move it if necessary.
This is just a general question about the Apocryphal books, and their place within Christianity. I've read the book of Enoch, but I'm very ignorant of the Apocryphal books otherwise. It's my understanding that both the Roman Catholics and Orthodox consider them canonical--correct?
Anyone have any wisdom to share? Consider me a complete novice on the subject.Tags: None
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