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Discussion on matters of general mainstream Christian churches. What are the differences between Catholics and protestants? How has the charismatic movement affected the church? Are Southern baptists different from fundamentalist baptists? It is also for discussions about the nature of the church.

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Heretics

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  • Heretics

    Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    You really can't see how a heretic isn't a real Christian? I just gave examples of how the NT writers had false teachers, and those who followed them as not Christian. They condemned them in very strong terms. Their teachings are foolishness, and those who follow them end in ruin. What they teach was even said to be "no gospel at all", meaning it wasn't Christianity at all.
    I do agree that doubtless some heretics are not real Christians: my point is that many people we would regard as Christians do hold heretical beliefs. These would be heretics, and according to you these would not be "real Christians".

    Arianism denies that Christ is LORD, which is not in any way shape or form what Christianity teaches. As for "damnable heresies" I mean the kind that put one outside the Body of Christ, and would mean that they are not saved.
    I agree that Arianism contradicts Scripture, but I do not see how Arianism is the type of heresy that "puts one outside the Body of Christ".

  • #2
    Originally posted by Paprika View Post
    I agree that Arianism contradicts Scripture, but I do not see how Arianism is the type of heresy that "puts one outside the Body of Christ".
    ". . . I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [He], ye shall die in your sins. . . ." -- John 8:24.

    ". . . Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. . . ." -- 2 John 9.

    ". . . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: . . . " -- Matthew 7:21-23.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    • #3
      John 8:23-24 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

      It sounds like he may just be saying that if they doubt that he is the one from above, then they will die in their sins.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
        John 8:23-24 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

        It sounds like he may just be saying that if they doubt that he is the one from above, then they will die in their sins.
        In that passage, however, Jesus is talking to people who've already seen him do miracles and profess certain claims about himself. For them, there would be no rational reason to believe otherwise. I'm not sure that the passage should be read as saying literally anyone at all who doesn't believe it will die in their sins.
        Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

        I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

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        • #5
          Other passages in the gospels make it clear that some of them explained his miracles as sorcery.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            ". . . I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [He], ye shall die in your sins. . . ." -- John 8:24.
            "He"? Or "he"?

            Despite the later emphasis on the ontology of God, the gospel is not primarily about Jesus' God-ontology but his Messiahship and his death and resurrection (and one might add his return for judgment).

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Paprika View Post
              Despite the later emphasis on the ontology of God, the gospel is not primarily about Jesus' God-ontology but his Messiahship and his death and resurrection (and one might add his return for judgment).
              This is quite true. The gospel is not PRIMARILY about this, but it is pretty clearly true if you look at all seriously. As I have shared on TWeb before; as a new Christian I did not accept the Godhood of Christ. I set out to show from the Bible that it was not true. The Bible corrected me.
              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                as a new Christian I did not accept the Godhood of Christ.
                Heretic!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                  "He"? Or "he"?

                  Despite the later emphasis on the ontology of God, the gospel is not primarily about Jesus' God-ontology but his Messiahship and his death and resurrection (and one might add his return for judgment).
                  The capitalization of the personal pronoun "he" is to indicate reference to Deity and is by no means practiced by everybody and not practiced by all Bible translators. The best I can tell, it was first done in the 20th century. I do not have any known examples earlier. It is not any kind of essential to do so.

                  John did make it a point that the one who is Christ was also God: " He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and the world did not know Him." -- John 1:10, Modern King James Version.
                  . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. ESV
                    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 37818 View Post

                      John did make it a point that the one who is Christ was also God: " He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and the world did not know Him." -- John 1:10, Modern King James Version.
                      No doubt, but did he make it a point that it is essential to believe in him as God so that one might be saved? Did Paul?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                        No doubt, but did he make it a point that it is essential to believe in him as God so that one might be saved?
                        That is how I understand John 8:24, 56 (Genesis 12:7; John 1:18 Son), 58.

                        Did Paul?
                        As a general warning, ". . . he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, . . . For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, . . ." -- 2 Corinthians 11:4, 13. And specifically, ". . . Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, . . ." -- Philippians 2:5, 6. Paul also taught that the resurrected and ascended Jesus was yet a man, ". . . the man Christ Jesus; . . ." -- 1 Timothy 2:5.
                        . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          That is how I understand John 8:24, 56 (Genesis 12:7; John 1:18 Son), 58.
                          John 8:24 does not make your case.

                          As a general warning, ". . . he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, . . . For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, . . ." -- 2 Corinthians 11:4, 13.
                          Which begs the question that the gospel Paul preached to included Jesus as God.

                          Though Paul did speak of more advanced topics to existing believers, we have no such records (such as from Acts) that the euaggelion was about God's ontology; rather the good news is about something that happened.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                            "He"? Or "he"?

                            Despite the later emphasis on the ontology of God, the gospel is not primarily about Jesus' God-ontology but his Messiahship and his death and resurrection (and one might add his return for judgment).
                            Since the whole idea of Messiah comes from the Tanach, the foundation is already laid to see that the Messiah representing the House of David will have God's full power and authority, being the same as God:
                            Zechariah 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

                            Zechariah 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

                            Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

                            We already know One who is fully God is talking and He is pierced, along with the Messiah who is Jesus fully man Son of David. So we see his dual nature expressed here.

                            Since this is referenced in John 19:37 and Revelation 1:7, we can conclude that the NT doesn't have to be explicit about the idea that the Messiah is the same as God, since 1st century Jews only ever knew there would be a Messiah from ideas stated in Jewish scripture. It's kind of like a given, supported by other verses like:
                            Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

                            How could you have all of God's power in heaven and earth without being the same as God?

                            As for salvation, I don't try to guess. If you acknowledge that Jesus has all that power to be like God does it matter a lot? You're still respecting all that power. If you don't think he has power to forgive your sins and decide your fate then there may be a real problem.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                              Since this is referenced in John 19:37 and Revelation 1:7, we can conclude that the NT doesn't have to be explicit about the idea that the Messiah is the same as God, since 1st century Jews only ever knew there would be a Messiah from ideas stated in Jewish scripture. It's kind of like a given, supported by other verses like:
                              In hindsight it may be a given: that doesn't mean that it was so for 1st Century Jews. An example: for us Christians the idea of a 'suffering servant' Messiah is a given; did the Jews have such a concept?

                              Comment

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