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Discussion on matters of general mainstream Christian churches. What are the differences between Catholics and protestants? How has the charismatic movement affected the church? Are Southern baptists different from fundamentalist baptists? It is also for discussions about the nature of the church.

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What's the Lesson?

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  • What's the Lesson?

    Mark Driscoll has resigned and Mars Hill is disbanding. All the satellite branches are either closing or becoming independent churches.

    So what's your take-away from this slow motion disaster?

    For me when in a church, check the accountability structure around the pastor. If its "Jesus only", yes people, or otherwise none or minimal, run!
    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

  • #2
    I think you have the right takeaway. Of course, the NT model isn't just one pastor, but rather a group of elders. I think as a practical matter, those churches (like mine) that may have one senior pastor but a committee of elders that can serve as a Diaconate and who do serve as a set of checks and balances are okay, as not every church has multiple people with a seminary education.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
      If its "Jesus only" . . ., run!
      What do you mean, what kind of church?
      The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

      [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
        So what's your take-away from this slow motion disaster?
        Propping up a abusive leader because he brings in the numbers is a monumentally stupid thing to do.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
          What do you mean, what kind of church?
          He means if the minister claims only to have accountability to Jesus.
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            I think you have the right takeaway. Of course, the NT model isn't just one pastor, but rather a group of elders. I think as a practical matter, those churches (like mine) that may have one senior pastor but a committee of elders that can serve as a Diaconate and who do serve as a set of checks and balances are okay, as not every church has multiple people with a seminary education.
            Can you expound upon the NT model you have in mind? When I think of the NT model, I think mostly of smallish house churches, occasional opportunities to preach in the synagogue, and usually an overseer over a region called Elder, or presbyter, or bishop (all of which seemed to be the same office initially). The exact role of a deacon seems to be a bit fuzzy, but it seems their role may have been to help serve either the Christian community or the overseer in some capacity, but if I'm remember correctly, a lot of scholars don't really see much difference between the office of deacon and bishop early on. Outside of leaders of house churches, and deacons/bishops, the greatest authoritative group seems to be the Apostles and the church located in Jerusalem.

            Eventually, as the church grew, by the second century we seem to see a much more delineated church hierarchy.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
              Can you expound upon the NT model you have in mind? When I think of the NT model, I think mostly of smallish house churches, occasional opportunities to preach in the synagogue, and usually an overseer over a region called Elder, or presbyter, or bishop (all of which seemed to be the same office initially). The exact role of a deacon seems to be a bit fuzzy, but it seems their role may have been to help serve either the Christian community or the overseer in some capacity, but if I'm remember correctly, a lot of scholars don't really see much difference between the office of deacon and bishop early on. Outside of leaders of house churches, and deacons/bishops, the greatest authoritative group seems to be the Apostles and the church located in Jerusalem.

              Eventually, as the church grew, by the second century we seem to see a much more delineated church hierarchy.
              This is essentially what I had in mind; one of my seminary professors has made the argument that "deacon" finds its etymology in "dust gatherer" because they were rushing about so fast to do whatever needed to be done that they kicked up dust, and that it was kind of a nebulous position. In other words, they were improvising on the fly based on perceived needs, and we should not take this example from the still-fledgling church as normative for all time (especially because things would change by the second century as everything got consolidated, as you mention). At the same time, I do think it's worth noting the sort of "shared power" there that speaks against the sort of authoritarianism we see in some Protestant churches today, including Driscoll's. There were checks and balances in Driscoll's case, but they ended up being "in name only" due to the power he accumulated.
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                the NT model
                Does that include voting in members to some or all of the leadership positions?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                  Does that include voting in members to some or all of the leadership positions?
                  No. I hope my last post made clear that I use the term "NT model" not so much to refer to something normative and binding but rather as an example of how the apostles addressed their own situation.
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                    No. I hope my last post made clear that I use the term "NT model" not so much to refer to something normative and binding but rather as an example of how the apostles addressed their own situation.
                    For some reason that is perhaps unique in my case (Sparko calls me a nut) I thought you are a RCC member. Or is Catholicity the one?
                    The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                    [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                      For some reason that is perhaps unique in my case (Sparko calls me a nut) I thought you are a RCC member. Or is Catholicity the one?
                      No, we both attend a Baptist church.
                      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                        What do you mean, what kind of church?
                        I mean a church where the pastor makes excessive noises about being only accountable to God and not to man. I went to one of those long enough to learn that was code for the pastor was going to do anything he wanted to and if you don't like it - even if you can also show its unBiblical, there's the door.
                        "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                        "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                        Comment

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