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Vatican 2's Infallibility-Where's the Beef?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
    I don't know. I'm pretty sure even modernists affirm the infallibility of dogmatic councils, or if they don't, they certainly do so with the scriptures. Then again, modernism cover a lot of heretical thinking, so I don't know.
    Well that hardly seems fair! If someone is going to be accused of heresy, I would hope they'd at least have a name for this supposed heresy. Maybe it is a brand new heresy (which does not seem likely) or maybe it is not a heresy at all?
    Last edited by robrecht; 09-03-2014, 06:02 PM.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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    • #47
      Originally posted by robrecht View Post
      Well that hardly seems fair! If someone is going to be accused of heresy, I would hope they'd at least have a name for this supposed heresy. Maybe it is a brand new heresy (which does not seem likely) or maybe it is not a heresy at all?
      I'm pretty sure denying the infallibility of the word of God is pretty much the ultimate heresy.
      Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

      -Thomas Aquinas

      I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

      -Hernando Cortez

      What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

      -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
        I'm pretty sure denying the infallibility of the word of God is pretty much the ultimate heresy.
        Is the Word of God the Second Person of the Trinity or words on a page?
        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by robrecht View Post
          Is the Word of God the Second Person of the Trinity or words on a page?
          The Bible, so yes, I suppose words on a page.
          Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

          -Thomas Aquinas

          I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

          -Hernando Cortez

          What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

          -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
            The Bible, so yes, I suppose words on a page.
            "In the beginning was the Word ... "

            Sound familiar? I think the Word of God is the second person of the Trinity. The biblical texts reflect the glory of God but are not God himself.
            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by robrecht View Post
              "In the beginning was the Word ... "

              Sound familiar? I think the Word of God is the second person of the Trinity. The biblical texts reflect the glory of God but are not God himself.
              But they are divinely inspired. As are the dogmatic councils of the Church.
              Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

              -Thomas Aquinas

              I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

              -Hernando Cortez

              What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

              -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
                But they are divinely inspired. As are the dogmatic councils of the Church.
                Citation please.
                Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
                  But they are divinely inspired. As are the dogmatic councils of the Church.
                  Is a council truly ecumenical, ie, of the whole world, if it is only composed of some representatives of some Christians who are already in union with the bishop of Rome? Is conciliar infallibility merely a function of papal infallibility? Why have a council? Is it more infallible than the pope?
                  Last edited by robrecht; 09-03-2014, 07:15 PM.
                  βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                  ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
                    I'm pretty sure denying the infallibility of the word of God is pretty much the ultimate heresy.
                    That would depend on a couple of points:
                    1/ Has "the word of God" been properly defined by the person who is calling others heretics? (assuming that "the word" referred to is the Biblical record.)
                    2/ Are the heretical people denying a proper interpretation of the Biblical records in question?
                    maybe other points as well

                    Also worth remembering - the claim that the Bible is the word of God only arose during the reformation.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...itatis-Humanae

                      Dignitatis Humanae thread here.
                      Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                        Citation please.
                        I need to give you a citation to show that the Bible is divinely inspired?
                        Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                        -Thomas Aquinas

                        I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                        -Hernando Cortez

                        What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                        -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
                          I need to give you a citation to show that the Bible is divinely inspired?
                          To explain the nature of Biblical divine inspiration as it relates to infallibility, inerrancy, etc, as well as to the teaching authority of the Church.
                          Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                            To explain the nature of Biblical divine inspiration as it relates to infallibility, inerrancy, etc, as well as to the teaching authority of the Church.
                            It means that the original authors of the books could not error in transmitting the facts.
                            Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                            -Thomas Aquinas

                            I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                            -Hernando Cortez

                            What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                            -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                            Comment

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