what little i provided thus far has been rejected so i dont think if i went further it would convince them.
i mean if a person can't tell the difference between using the expression "i pray you..." to someone and the Bible recording a prayer to God there isn't any point going into even more detail.
this stuff is just basic.
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This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and theists. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions. Additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101.
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prayer and worship
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Foud, would you be willing to provide an explanation of the precise meanings of prayer and worship and explain how these concepts are connected?
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Originally posted by foudroyant View PostIsaiah 44:17 (what you cited in the OP) does not fit the definition of prayer just previously described.
The person engaging in this kind of prayer would expect their idol to hear them even if done silently. Your example that you just referred to where the Ethiopian asked Philip to explain something does not fall in the same category as Isaiah 44:17.
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Isaiah 44:17 (what you cited in the OP) does not fit the definition of prayer just previously described.
The person engaging in this kind of prayer would expect their idol to hear them even if done silently. Your example that you just referred to where the Ethiopian asked Philip to explain something does not fall in the same category as Isaiah 44:17.
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As we see from the Ethiopian Eunuch's encounter with Philip, where the former asks Philip to explain the scriptures, the Eunuch says "I pray you" - this is a simple demonstration of prayer which does not involve worship. This same form of praying is common in petitions presented to the British parliament, and to the parliaments of some other countries - though whether the form is followed in the USA, I don't know.
A number of words translate from Koine Greek as prayer, but only one of these (προςευχομαι) is reserved for address to a deity, and other words may be used when referring to prayer to a deity. It is therefore, readily apparent that if any word automatically implies worship, only προσευχομαι can do so.
Now returning to "worship" (προσκυνεω) as it is defined, we see that prayer is not inherently a part of that action
to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
to the Jewish high priests
to God
to Christ
to heavenly beings
to demons
Nor do we usually find "worship" listed as inherently part of "prayer" even when that prayer is προσευχομαι, much less do we find prayer equated with worship.
BDAG
to petition deity, pray
VINES
to offer prayers, to pray
STRONG's Concordance
proseuchomai: to pray
Original Word: προσεύχομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proseuchomai
Phonetic Spelling: (pros-yoo'-khom-ahee)
Short Definition: I pray, pray for
Definition: I pray, pray for, offer prayer.
HELPS Word-studies
4336 proseúxomai (from 4314 /prós, "towards, exchange" and 2172/euxomai, "to wish, pray") – properly, to exchange wishes; pray – literally, to interact with the Lord by switching human wishes (ideas) for His wishes as He imparts faith ("divine persuasion"). Accordingly, praying (4336/proseuxomai) is closely inter-connected with 4102 /pístis ("faith") in the NT. See: Ac 6:5,6,14:22,23; Eph 6:16-18; Col 1:3,4; 2 Thes 3:1,2; Js 5:13-15; Jude 20.
However, on occasion, we find a listing where prayer – but even then, only προσευχομαι, is defined as worship:
MICKELSON
G4336 προσεύχομαι proseuchomai (pros-yoo'-khom-ai) v.
1. to pray to God, i.e. supplicate, worship
[from G4314 and G2172]
KJV: pray (X earnestly, for), make prayer
It is, therefore, necessary to open the scriptures themselves to determine which of these definitions is wrong or perhaps merely deficient.
Isaiah 44:17 τὸ δὲ λοιπὸν ἐποίησεν εἰς θεὸν γλυπτὸν καὶ προσκυνεῖ αὐτῷ καὶ προσεύχεται λέγων ἐξελοῦ με ὅτι θεός μου εἶ σύ
With Isaiah 44:17 showing that prayer (προσευχομαι) and worship(προσκυνεω) are in fact distinct and separate actions, it has been shown that Mickelson’s definition is sadly mistaken.Last edited by tabibito; 08-06-2014, 08:25 AM.
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In Matthew 6 the giving of alms, prayer and fasting are all types of worship.
All worship is not prayer but all prayer is worship.
"O Baal, answer us" (1 Kings 18:26, NASB).
Was Baal being prayed to? Yes.
Was Baal being worshiped? Yes.Last edited by foudroyant; 08-06-2014, 06:59 AM.
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The Koine Greek προσκυνεω, also meaning "worship", has much the same meaning as the Hebrew "shashach". The differences are essentially cultural.
to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
to the Jewish high priests
to God
to Christ
to heavenly beings
to demons
In general terms, worship (προσκυνεω ) is undertaken as a matter of respect, or paying homage. Not all of the forms of worship are relevant to the narrative of the New Testament, so only some of them find expression in the Holy Writ. Demons and angels, and men of superior rank including the Jewish High Priests, can be worshipped – whether legitimately is a related issue, but not germane to the current examination.
Worship is a matter of paying homage, and can be a simple expression of respect, or to make obeisance, or it can be undertaken as a matter of expressing the proper attitude for making supplication.
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As can be shown from the actual dictionary definitions - as distinct from expository writing that describes the kind of action that is commonly associated with worship - worship does not necessarily involve prayer. A person may worship a music idol for example, but it would be wholly unexpected that such worship would involve prayer.
Worship as defined by the Hebrew "shashach" for example, is prohibited where worshiping pagan deities is concerned, but it does not prohibit worship of a man (except that he is given worship as if he were a god.) The actual definition does not include prayer.
to bow down
(Qal) to bow down
(Hiphil) to depress (fig)
(Hithpael)
to bow down, prostrate oneself
before superior in homage
before God in worship
before false gods
before angels
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A distinction is generally easier to make if definitions are provided. What, in a biblical context, is worship? What is prayer? How are they connected, and how are they distinct?
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Worship encompasses falling down to the idol and praying to it.
So by praying “Deliver me, for you are my god” this is worshiping the idol.
If someone says, "Oh God, I am not really worshiping this idol I am simply praying to it" this won't work!
That prayer is worship is also seen in 1 Kings 18:26.
"O Baal, answer us"
Praying to Baal is worshiping Baal.
Your assertion fails.Last edited by foudroyant; 08-05-2014, 11:00 PM.
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prayer and worship
Isa 44:17 But the rest of it he makes into a god, his graven image. He falls down before it and worships; he also prays to it and says, “Deliver me, for you are my god.”
The belief that prayer is worship is demolished in this one verse from Isaiah. That they are given to an idol notwithstanding: they are clearly stated to be separate and distinct actions.Tags: None
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