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Discussion on matters of general mainstream Christian churches. What are the differences between Catholics and protestants? How has the charismatic movement affected the church? Are Southern baptists different from fundamentalist baptists? It is also for discussions about the nature of the church.

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prayer and worship

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  • #31
    With their lips a prayer is made to Him (in worship) but their hearts are deceptive in doing so
    The word used in Matthew that is translated by you as worship is τιμαω, which has a secondary translation as worship, but its primary meanings are "reverence" or "honour". The word with a primary meaning of worship is προσκυνεω.
    Matthew 15:9: This people honours me with their lips but their heart is far from me.
    Restoring the mangled interpretation you give Matthew shows that neither prayer nor worship is mentioned in that verse.
    A person who says "God be praised" is giving honour with his lips - he is not praying, he is praising.
    If his statement is heartfelt, then of course the praise is being given as a form of worship... If not, no respect or honour is being given to God, and his words are not words of worship.
    Last edited by tabibito; 08-07-2014, 07:07 AM.
    1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
    Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

    "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      The word used in Matthew that is translated by you as worship is τιμαω, which has a secondary translation as worship, but its primary meanings are "reverence" or "honour".
      But how it is used in Matthew 15:8 refers to worship (cf. Matthew 15:9).

      "Lips" can refer to praying.
      Through Him then, let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that give thanks to His name. (Hebrews 13:15, NASB).

      And yes this is worship.
      Last edited by foudroyant; 08-07-2014, 07:36 AM.

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      • #33
        But how it is used in Matthew 15:8 refers to worship (cf. Matthew 15:9). -
        21/21 of the Bible versions checked say "honour" - none of them even say "reverence"

        "Lips" refers to praying spoken words - praying maybe, praise certainly.
        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
        Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

        "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

        Comment


        • #34
          1. That is why the Greek word should be checked - not merely the English word.
          2. Praising God is praying to God.

          O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise. (Psalm 51:15, KJV)
          Last edited by foudroyant; 08-07-2014, 07:50 AM.

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          • #35
            1. That is why the Greek word should be checked - not merely the English word.
            I checked the Greek before I checked the English.

            2. Praising God is praying to God.
            Praying to God is a matter of directly addressing God, Praising him is not a necessarily a matter of directly addressing him.

            O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise. (Psalm 51:15, KJV)
            being a case in point: show forth praises is praising God to other people, it isn't giving praise to God.
            As in Psalm 145:4, Isaiah 42:12, Isaiah 43:21
            Last edited by tabibito; 08-07-2014, 08:46 AM.
            1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
            Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

            "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              Praying to God is a matter of directly addressing God, Praising him is not a necessarily a matter of directly addressing him.
              Whether directly addressing Him or indirectly addressing Him it is still a prayer to Him.

              Furthermore, if you did check the Greek before you checked the English you would see that the reek word used in Matthew 15:8 is τιμᾷ.
              On page 1005 of Danker's lexicon it reads "to show high regard for, honor, revere". So even if the English word does not read "reverence" the thought is certainly present.
              Last edited by foudroyant; 08-07-2014, 10:48 PM.

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              • #37
                Now of course, the argument might be raised that Jesus told his disciples that when they pray they should go to an inner room rather than pray in public.
                Did Jesus really mean that public prayer was prohibited, or that prayer was not to be undertaken for public display and show people how righteous is the one who prays? To pretend that Jesus was prohibiting public prayer would make it difficult to understand why the disciples did in fact engage in public prayer.
                Further to the point, Jesus used the word "proseuchomai" in that statement. This word is not a general word for prayer, but is associated with a particular form of prayer.

                Some might consider τιμα to be worship and inappropriate when directed to persons other than God, but that idea is readily shown without foundation: In Matthew 15:4, it is recorded that a person is expected to τιμα his father and his mother.
                1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  Some might consider τιμα to be worship and inappropriate when directed to persons other than God, but that idea is readily shown without foundation: In Matthew 15:4, it is recorded that a person is expected to τιμα his father and his mother.
                  There are different ways it can be used. In John 5:23 it refers to worship.
                  http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...er-and-the-Son

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                  • #39
                    There are of course, a number of ways by which respect can be expressed. By worship, in prayer, through doing the will of the Father. None of these ways of EXPRESSING respect in any way change the meaning of the word "respect".
                    1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                    Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                    "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      One of the ways the Lord Jesus honored the Father was by praying to Him.
                      But we are not to pray to our parents.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        An argument can be made that one is not to proseuxomai one's parents - it might even be a valid argument. However, other forms of prayer to one's parents are not prohibited.
                        Last edited by tabibito; 08-08-2014, 08:57 AM.
                        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                        Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                        "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Wouldn't δέησις not be permitted as well?

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