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Discussion on matters of general mainstream Christian churches. What are the differences between Catholics and protestants? How has the charismatic movement affected the church? Are Southern baptists different from fundamentalist baptists? It is also for discussions about the nature of the church.

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prayer and worship

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  • #16
    Just as bowing down is part of the worship taken place so too is prayer (Isaiah 44:17).
    The Ethiopian Eunuch was already addressed.

    Comment


    • #17
      The Ethiopian Eunuch was already addressed.
      When a person says "I pray (δεομαι) you" to God, he is praying to God.
      When a person says "I pray (δεομαι) you" to a man, he is praying to a man.

      It is that simple.
      1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
      Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

      "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

      Comment


      • #18
        Not in the same sense as pointed out in Post #14.

        Comment


        • #19
          PRAY
          1.
          to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).
          2.
          to offer (a prayer).
          3.
          to bring, put, etc., by praying: to pray a soul into heaven.
          4.
          to make earnest petition to (a person).
          5.
          to make petition or entreaty for; crave: She prayed his forgiveness.
          6.
          to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to God or to an object of worship.
          7.
          to enter into spiritual communion with God or an object of worship through prayer.


          The definition of pray is clear. It is offering petition/thanks/praise TO god or an OBJECT OF worship. The definition doesn't show that prayer is worship in any of the listed 6 sub-definitions.
          1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
          Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

          "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

          Comment


          • #20
            God is already an object of worship so when it reads prayer is "to God or an object of worship" it agrees with what a saying:

            Prayer is worship.

            Worship: It has been well said that ‘for St. Paul and the member of the early Christian brotherhood the whole of life was a continuous worship, and the one great feature of that worship was prayer.’ (Hastings' Dictionary of the New Testament, A. E. Burn).
            http://www.studylight.org/dictionari...iew.cgi?n=2948
            Last edited by foudroyant; 08-07-2014, 01:57 AM.

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            • #21
              It doesn't say that prayer is worship - it says that prayer is offered.
              There is something called a preposition there... in this case, "to". Claiming that prayer is worship because it is directed to a particular person is as sensible as claiming that prayer is win, because someone prays to win. (not to say that this "to" identifies an indirect object).
              The indirect object is God (or others that may be worshipped.) and other sub-definitions (3,4, and in particular, 5.) show that praying is not necessarily directed toward an object of worship.
              Last edited by tabibito; 08-07-2014, 02:04 AM.
              1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
              Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

              "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                and other sub-definitions show that praying is not necessarily directed toward an object of worship.
                Which would fall under what I wrote in Post #14.

                Of course the prayer is offered. Prayer is offered in worship. Prayer that isn't offered isn't prayer.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Prayer that isn't offered isn't prayer.
                  A prayer can exist before it is offered, though of course, prayers to God might not fit into that category.

                  It doesn't say that prayer is worship - it says that prayer is offered.
                  There is something called a preposition there... in this case, "to". Claiming that prayer is worship because it is directed to a particular person is as sensible as claiming that prayer is win, because someone prays to win. (not to say that this "to" identifies an indirect object).
                  The indirect object is God (or others that may be worshipped.) and other sub-definitions (3,4, and in particular, 5.) show that praying is not necessarily directed toward an object of worship.
                  1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                  Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                  "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Prayer is offered in worship.
                    Post #20.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Prayer is offered in worship.
                      Quite so: if someone offers a curtsy in respect, "curtsy" doesn't suddenly become "respect."

                      We know that because the preposition "in" is present in the statement.

                      prayer is offered "during" or "as a means of expressing" (that is to say: in) worship.

                      "in" shows the place or circumstances where "prayer" is happening.
                      Last edited by tabibito; 08-07-2014, 02:25 AM.
                      1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                      Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                      "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        Quite so: if someone offers a curtsy in respect, "curtsy" doesn't suddenly become "respect."
                        This is why prayer is due unto God alone for He alone, as the heart-knower (meaning He is omniscient), would know the entire heart from which the prayer sprang forth.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                          This is why prayer is due unto God alone for He alone, as the heart-knower (meaning He is omniscient), would know the entire heart from which the prayer sprang forth.
                          1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                          Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                          "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            It is not off topic because of the example you gave. Someone may curtsy but at the same time within their heart they do it deceptively.
                            The same holds true with prayer to God. With their lips a prayer is made to Him (in worship) but their hearts are deceptive in doing so (Matthew 15:8).

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                              It is not off topic because of the example you gave. Someone may curtsy but at the same time within their heart they do it deceptively.
                              The same holds true with prayer to God. With their lips a prayer is made to Him (in worship) but their hearts are deceptive in doing so (Matthew 15:8).
                              Well then: there you go. They would be praying without even a skerrick of worship in evidence anywhere.
                              1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                              Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                              "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                When praying they would be worshiping...but just not to God.
                                It would appear they were (actions and words) but in reality it is done in "vain" (Matthew 15:9).
                                Last edited by foudroyant; 08-07-2014, 05:44 AM.

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