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prayer and worship

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  • prayer and worship

    Isa 44:17 But the rest of it he makes into a god, his graven image. He falls down before it and worships; he also prays to it and says, “Deliver me, for you are my god.”
    The belief that prayer is worship is demolished in this one verse from Isaiah. That they are given to an idol notwithstanding: they are clearly stated to be separate and distinct actions.
    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  • #2
    Worship encompasses falling down to the idol and praying to it.

    So by praying “Deliver me, for you are my god” this is worshiping the idol.

    If someone says, "Oh God, I am not really worshiping this idol I am simply praying to it" this won't work!

    That prayer is worship is also seen in 1 Kings 18:26.
    "O Baal, answer us"
    Praying to Baal is worshiping Baal.

    Your assertion fails.
    Last edited by foudroyant; 08-06-2014, 12:00 AM.

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    • #3
      A distinction is generally easier to make if definitions are provided. What, in a biblical context, is worship? What is prayer? How are they connected, and how are they distinct?
      Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

      Comment


      • #4
        As can be shown from the actual dictionary definitions - as distinct from expository writing that describes the kind of action that is commonly associated with worship - worship does not necessarily involve prayer. A person may worship a music idol for example, but it would be wholly unexpected that such worship would involve prayer.

        Worship as defined by the Hebrew "shashach" for example, is prohibited where worshiping pagan deities is concerned, but it does not prohibit worship of a man (except that he is given worship as if he were a god.) The actual definition does not include prayer.

        to bow down

        (Qal) to bow down

        (Hiphil) to depress (fig)

        (Hithpael)

        to bow down, prostrate oneself

        before superior in homage

        before God in worship

        before false gods

        before angels
        sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

        Comment


        • #5
          The Koine Greek προσκυνεω, also meaning "worship", has much the same meaning as the Hebrew "shashach". The differences are essentially cultural.



          to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence

          among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence

          in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication

          used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank

          to the Jewish high priests

          to God

          to Christ

          to heavenly beings

          to demons


          In general terms, worship (προσκυνεω ) is undertaken as a matter of respect, or paying homage. Not all of the forms of worship are relevant to the narrative of the New Testament, so only some of them find expression in the Holy Writ. Demons and angels, and men of superior rank including the Jewish High Priests, can be worshipped – whether legitimately is a related issue, but not germane to the current examination.
          Worship is a matter of paying homage, and can be a simple expression of respect, or to make obeisance, or it can be undertaken as a matter of expressing the proper attitude for making supplication.
          sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

          Comment


          • #6
            In Matthew 6 the giving of alms, prayer and fasting are all types of worship.

            All worship is not prayer but all prayer is worship.


            "O Baal, answer us" (1 Kings 18:26, NASB).
            Was Baal being prayed to? Yes.
            Was Baal being worshiped? Yes.
            Last edited by foudroyant; 08-06-2014, 07:59 AM.

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            • #7
              As we see from the Ethiopian Eunuch's encounter with Philip, where the former asks Philip to explain the scriptures, the Eunuch says "I pray you" - this is a simple demonstration of prayer which does not involve worship. This same form of praying is common in petitions presented to the British parliament, and to the parliaments of some other countries - though whether the form is followed in the USA, I don't know.
              A number of words translate from Koine Greek as prayer, but only one of these (προςευχομαι) is reserved for address to a deity, and other words may be used when referring to prayer to a deity. It is therefore, readily apparent that if any word automatically implies worship, only προσευχομαι can do so.

              Now returning to "worship" (προσκυνεω) as it is defined, we see that prayer is not inherently a part of that action



              to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence

              among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence

              in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication

              used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank

              to the Jewish high priests

              to God

              to Christ

              to heavenly beings

              to demons


              Nor do we usually find "worship" listed as inherently part of "prayer" even when that prayer is προσευχομαι, much less do we find prayer equated with worship.


              BDAG
              to petition deity, pray
              VINES
              to offer prayers, to pray

              STRONG's Concordance
              proseuchomai: to pray
              Original Word: προσεύχομαι
              Part of Speech: Verb
              Transliteration: proseuchomai
              Phonetic Spelling: (pros-yoo'-khom-ahee)
              Short Definition: I pray, pray for
              Definition: I pray, pray for, offer prayer.

              HELPS Word-studies
              4336 proseúxomai (from 4314 /prós, "towards, exchange" and 2172/euxomai, "to wish, pray") – properly, to exchange wishes; pray – literally, to interact with the Lord by switching human wishes (ideas) for His wishes as He imparts faith ("divine persuasion"). Accordingly, praying (4336/proseuxomai) is closely inter-connected with 4102 /pístis ("faith") in the NT. See: Ac 6:5,6,14:22,23; Eph 6:16-18; Col 1:3,4; 2 Thes 3:1,2; Js 5:13-15; Jude 20.


              However, on occasion, we find a listing where prayer – but even then, only προσευχομαι, is defined as worship:


              MICKELSON
              G4336 προσεύχομαι proseuchomai (pros-yoo'-khom-ai) v.
              1. to pray to God, i.e. supplicate, worship
              [from G4314 and G2172]
              KJV: pray (X earnestly, for), make prayer


              It is, therefore, necessary to open the scriptures themselves to determine which of these definitions is wrong or perhaps merely deficient.
              Isaiah 44:17 τὸ δὲ λοιπὸν ἐποίησεν εἰς θεὸν γλυπτὸν καὶ προσκυνεῖ αὐτῷ καὶ προσεύχεται λέγων ἐξελοῦ με ὅτι θεός μου εἶ σύ
              With Isaiah 44:17 showing that prayer (προσευχομαι) and worship(προσκυνεω) are in fact distinct and separate actions, it has been shown that Mickelson’s definition is sadly mistaken.
              Last edited by tabibito; 08-06-2014, 09:25 AM.
              sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

              Comment


              • #8
                Isaiah 44:17 (what you cited in the OP) does not fit the definition of prayer just previously described.
                The person engaging in this kind of prayer would expect their idol to hear them even if done silently. Your example that you just referred to where the Ethiopian asked Philip to explain something does not fall in the same category as Isaiah 44:17.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                  Isaiah 44:17 (what you cited in the OP) does not fit the definition of prayer just previously described.
                  The person engaging in this kind of prayer would expect their idol to hear them even if done silently. Your example that you just referred to where the Ethiopian asked Philip to explain something does not fall in the same category as Isaiah 44:17.
                  Red Herring.jpg
                  sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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                  • #10
                    I don't fish. I do eat them though.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Foud, would you be willing to provide an explanation of the precise meanings of prayer and worship and explain how these concepts are connected?
                      Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        what little i provided thus far has been rejected so i dont think if i went further it would convince them.
                        i mean if a person can't tell the difference between using the expression "i pray you..." to someone and the Bible recording a prayer to God there isn't any point going into even more detail.
                        this stuff is just basic.
                        Last edited by foudroyant; 08-07-2014, 01:21 AM.

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                        • #13
                          Conflating all forms of prayer to προσευχομαι, in conflict with the various Koine Greek words that denote prayer.
                          Refusing to acknowledge that prayer does not necessarily involve worship.
                          Refusing to acknowledge that worship does not necessarily involve prayer.

                          THIS stuff is just basic. It demonstrates a refusal to acknowledge the facts.
                          sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Refusing to believe how the lexicons properly define the biblical words at hand.
                            Refusing to cite just one passage where prayer is not worship. (See Post #212).
                            http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ng-Mary/page22
                            Refusing to see that I already acknowledged that worship does not mean prayer is taken place. (see Post #6, First Sentence).
                            http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...er-and-worship

                            This is the basic stuff I am talking about Sparty.
                            Last edited by foudroyant; 08-07-2014, 01:37 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Refusing to cite just one passage where prayer is not worship.
                              Isaiah 44:17 clearly shows prayer and worship are separate actions.
                              The Ethiopian Eunuch says "I pray you" - prayer that isn't in the slightest related to worship.
                              Peter and Simon both use the same word for prayer (not προσευχομαι) when speaking of prayer to God.

                              All worship is not prayer but all prayer is worship.
                              I had forgotten the retraction of the claim that worship does mean prayer, admittedly.
                              And Isaiah 44:17 works both ways. It separates prayer and worship as independent actions.


                              Even the claim that all προσευχομαι prayer is worship is doubtful, other forms of prayer are palpably not worship.
                              Last edited by tabibito; 08-07-2014, 02:45 AM.
                              sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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