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  • #61
    Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
    Sorry, but "I know they did!" isn't good enough. You're going to have to provide evidence to back up that accusation. The closest thing you could ever come to that accusation is what the Church did in the fifties....and even then, they were just following suit with the secular authorities at the time, and sending men with pedophilia urges to get psychological counseling rather than sending them to prison.

    Why does it matter, again?
    My personal experience experience is from the early 80s through the mid-90s, during a time when this practice was in the process of changing.

    It is important when one considers the issue of ephebophilia and not just pedophilia.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by robrecht View Post
      Were we in a court of law, my testimony would be accepted as evidence, and I would provide my testimony truthfully, exactly as I've posted here, except there I would be gladly subject to the legal penalties for perjury. I would not have documentary evidence of my own to provide but it is subject to subpoena. I suspect that some subpoenaed documents have been made public, but I've never searched for this kind of evidence as I have no need of it to back up my own experience. Apart from my own experience I have also known personally one of the foremost experts in this field as well as several major superiors and bishops who would tell you exactly the same thing. You don't have to take my word for it.
      Were we in a court of law, my testimony would be accepted as evidence

      Lone testimonies, with no other attestations, are never enough to prove anything. That's just anecdotal evidence.

      Apart from my own experience I have also known personally one of the foremost experts in this field as well as several major superiors and bishops who would tell you exactly the same thing. You don't have to take my word for it.
      Can you cite a couple of them? Also, bishops? I thought you said the higher-ups were the ones perpetuating the cover-ups.
      Last edited by TimelessTheist; 06-11-2014, 03:48 PM.
      Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

      -Thomas Aquinas

      I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

      -Hernando Cortez

      What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

      -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
        Lone testimonies, with no other attestations, are never enough to prove anything. That's just anecdotal evidence.

        Can you cite a couple of them? Also, bishops? I thought you said the higher-ups were the ones perpetuating the cover-ups.
        I will not publicly reveal any of these names on the Internet, or privately either, but they have all properly testified or given depositions in numerous cases. I'm not sure what your question is about bishops. Yes, bishops were involved in not reporting allegations to civil authorities, and, yes, bishops will admit, at least privately, that this was common practice. As I said before, you do not have to take my word for it. I wish it were not true. Do your own research and let your conscience be your guide.
        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by robrecht View Post
          I will not publicly reveal any of these names on the Internet, or privately either, but they have all properly testified or given depositions in numerous cases. I'm not sure what your question is about bishops. Yes, bishops were involved in not reporting allegations to civil authorities, and, yes, bishops will admit, at least privately, that this was common practice. As I said before, you do not have to take my word for it. I wish it were not true. Do your own research and let your conscience be your guide.
          If they've already testified and given depositions, they clearly don't want to remain anonymous. What's the problem with naming them? Unless, of course, these people don't actually exist.

          yes, bishops will admit, at least privately, that this was common practice.
          How do you even know this if, supposedly, they've only spoken of it privately?
          Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

          -Thomas Aquinas

          I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

          -Hernando Cortez

          What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

          -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
            If they've already testified and given depositions, they clearly don't want to remain anonymous. What's the problem with naming them? Unless, of course, these people don't actually exist.

            How do you even know this if, supposedly, they've only spoken of it privately?
            It would not be appropriate for me to name any of the people who have spoken to me privately about this. Do you seriously think otherwise?
            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by robrecht View Post
              It would not be appropriate for me to name any of the people who have spoken to me privately about this. Do you seriously think otherwise?
              You're the one who said they testified publicly. Though, remember, I really have no reason to trust you. I've never heard anything from my priests, or local bishop, about this "cover it up" malarkey, so I have the exact same amount of personal evidence as you do.
              Last edited by TimelessTheist; 06-11-2014, 08:10 PM.
              Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

              -Thomas Aquinas

              I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

              -Hernando Cortez

              What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

              -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
                You're the one who said they testified publicly.
                No, I did not say that, you did. I do not know how much of their testimony has been made public. I don't think depositions are typically public documents and I do not have any transcripts to quote what may or may not be a matter of the public record. Even if I wanted to reveal who my friends and confidants are, which I most certainly do not.

                Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
                Though, remember, I really have no reason to trust you.
                Exactly as I've already said twice, and now for a third time. You do not have to believe me. Do your own research. Follow your own conscience.

                Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
                I've never heard anything from my priests, or local bishop, about this "cover it up" malarkey, so I have the exact same amount of personal evidence as you do.
                How many bishops or major superiors have you spoken with directly and privately about this very issue? How many years have you spent in religious life with direct personal experience of people in exactly these situations? How many experts in the treatment of priestly sexual abuse have you spoken to? I seriously doubt you have anywhere near the amount of personal experience I do.

                Do your own research. I know the Chicago Archdiocease was forced to releaes personel records of 30 priests in January of this year. I know these were sought from other dioceases, but I haven't kept track of which other dioceases lost their efforts to keep these records confidential. I'm sure there's enough out there to validate everything I've said for those who want to go find it.
                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                  No, I did not say that, you did. I do not know how much of their testimony has been made public. I don't think depositions are typically public documents and I do not have any transcripts to quote what may or may not be a matter of the public record. Even if I wanted to reveal who my friends and confidants are, which I most certainly do not.
                  Deposition testimony is typically not public, though excerpts from such testimony can be attached to publicly filed court documents or read into the public record at trial.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    Deposition testimony is typically not public, though excerpts from such testimony can be attached to publicly filed court documents or read into the public record at trial.
                    If there even is a trial. Many of these cases, perhaps the great majority, have been settled out of court with confidentiality agreements.
                    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      No, I did not say that, you did. I do not know how much of their testimony has been made public. I don't think depositions are typically public documents and I do not have any transcripts to quote what may or may not be a matter of the public record. Even if I wanted to reveal who my friends and confidants are, which I most certainly do not.
                      Alright, sorry, I thought that's what you meant.

                      Exactly as I've already said twice, and now for a third time. You do not have to believe me. Do your own research. Follow your own conscience.
                      You need to understand, if I believed a claim such as this, with no attestation or evidence to back it up, then I would be betraying my life-long epistemology for this one instance. Physical evidence and/or reliable attestation must be used to prove all claims outside of the philosophical ones. The one reason I didn't embrace Christianity until I did was because I didn't actually think it had any good evidence/attestation (though that was partly my fault, for never really researching it).

                      How many bishops or major superiors have you spoken with directly and privately about this very issue? How many years have you spent in religious life with direct personal experience of people in exactly these situations? How many experts in the treatment of priestly sexual abuse have you spoken to? I seriously doubt you have anywhere near the amount of personal experience I do.

                      Do your own research. I know the Chicago Archdiocease was forced to releaes personel records of 30 priests in January of this year. I know these were sought from other dioceases, but I haven't kept track of which other dioceases lost their efforts to keep these records confidential. I'm sure there's enough out there to validate everything I've said for those who want to go find it.
                      Well, I'll admit, relatively, I haven't had much, but since you refuse to elaborate on your experiences, I don't exactly know what to compare it to. Not to mention I don't know what you mean by an "expert" in priest sexual abuse.

                      Do your own research. I know the Chicago Archdiocease was forced to releaes personel records of 30 priests in January of this year.
                      They were records of the "allegations" levied towards the priests, and the majority of them were never proven to be true in a criminal court. There was no evidence that they tried to protect these priests from the authorities, and furthermore, the ones who were found guilty were promptly removed from the ministry, with some exceptions (Such as the case with Cardinal Bernardin and Father Fitzharris, where, after being found guilty of having sexual relations with a fifteen year old in a criminal court, the Cardinal gave him a second chance by assigning him to a new parish, and making sure that he had no unsupervised contact with high-school age boys. However, this kind of second chance was only given rarely by the Cardinal.)

                      The majority of the complaints are due to the fact that either the Church authorities were too charitable towards them, or did not defrock them hard enough. For instance, one approved of the action taken by the Gov. of Wisconsin to allow a guilty priest to see his deceased mother's body in prison, he called it "an exceptional act of charity".

                      Another one was where a Cardinal refused to defrock an guilty priest, opting that the punishments inflicted by the judicial system, and his removal from the ministry, as punishment enough.

                      Yet another was when a Cardinal wrote to a prole commission to recommend release of a guilty priest, but later changed his mind after more people came forth with accusations towards him.

                      While it's true that some say there's some sort of "systematic form of abuse and protection" shown in the files (Mostly contingency lawyers that stand to make a lot of money off of constantly suing the Church), I don't see it.
                      Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                      -Thomas Aquinas

                      I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                      -Hernando Cortez

                      What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                      -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
                        Alright, sorry, I thought that's what you meant.

                        You need to understand, if I believed a claim such as this, with no attestation or evidence to back it up, then I would be betraying my life-long epistemology for this one instance. Physical evidence and/or reliable attestation must be used to prove all claims outside of the philosophical ones. The one reason I didn't embrace Christianity until I did was because I didn't actually think it had any good evidence/attestation (though that was partly my fault, for never really researching it).
                        For the fourth time, no one is asking you to believe any claims without evidence. I'm asking you to do your own research and follow your own conscience. Several diocease have been forced to turn over redacted personnel files on some of the priests involved in lawsuits. They are posted on the Internet, sometimes on diocesean websites, but elsewhere in a more comprehensive way.

                        Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
                        Well, I'll admit, relatively, I haven't had much, but since you refuse to elaborate on your experiences, I don't exactly know what to compare it to. Not to mention I don't know what you mean by an "expert" in priest sexual abuse.
                        I mean someone who has treated hundreds of priest abusers and advised the bishops on this issue.

                        Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
                        They were records of the "allegations" levied towards the priests, and the majority of them were never proven to be true in a criminal court. There was no evidence that they tried to protect these priests from the authorities, and furthermore, the ones who were found guilty were promptly removed from the ministry, with some exceptions (Such as the case with Cardinal Bernardin and Father Fitzharris, where, after being found guilty of having sexual relations with a fifteen year old in a criminal court, the Cardinal gave him a second chance by assigning him to a new parish, and making sure that he had no unsupervised contact with high-school age boys. However, this kind of second chance was only given rarely by the Cardinal.)

                        The majority of the complaints are due to the fact that either the Church authorities were too charitable towards them, or did not defrock them hard enough. For instance, one approved of the action taken by the Gov. of Wisconsin to allow a guilty priest to see his deceased mother's body in prison, he called it "an exceptional act of charity".

                        Another one was where a Cardinal refused to defrock an guilty priest, opting that the punishments inflicted by the judicial system, and his removal from the ministry, as punishment enough.

                        Yet another was when a Cardinal wrote to a prole commission to recommend release of a guilty priest, but later changed his mind after more people came forth with accusations towards him.

                        While it's true that some say there's some sort of "systematic form of abuse and protection" shown in the files (Mostly contingency lawyers that stand to make a lot of money off of constantly suing the Church), I don't see it.
                        These lawyers have already made a lot of money because they have won settlements in court and out of court. Out-of-court settlements typically included confidentiality agreements, but in some cases, the courts have forced some dioceases to make public some redacted personnel files and you can see how the church transferred priests to new assignments with continued responsibility for minors, sometimes just taking them at their word when they categorically denied any abuse, but requiring those who claimed to have suffered from abuse to undergo psychological testing by psychologists in their employ, knowing full well that a psychologist would never be able to, nor try to, verify that abuse had occured. Even when a psychologist would attest to the honesty and integrity of the person, they would still claim that the psychologist was not able to verify that the abuse had occured, and therefore declare they were at an impasse, unable to offer any psychological support. It has become the policy, and the law, to report all allegations to the civil authorities, but this was not the common practice until it began to be adopted in the 90s. Do not take my word for it; read the files yourself if you not trust any of the media reports.
                        Last edited by robrecht; 06-14-2014, 06:44 AM.
                        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          These lawyers have already made a lot of money because they have won settlements in court and out of court. Out-of-court settlements typically included confidentiality agreements, but in some cases, the courts have forced some dioceases to make public some redacted personnel files and you can see how the church transferred priests to new assignments with continued responsibility for minors, sometimes just taking them at their word when they categorically denied any abuse, but requiring those who claimed to have suffered from abuse to undergo psychological testing by psychologists in their employ, knowing full well that a psychologist would never be able to, nor try to, verify that abuse had occured. Even when a psychologist would attest to the honesty and integrity of the person, they would still claim that the psychologist was not able to verify that the abuse had occured, and therefore declare they were at an impasse, unable to offer any psychological support. It has become the policy, and the law, to report all allegations to the civil authorities, but this was not the common practice until it began to be adopted in the 90s. Do not take my word for it; read the files yourself if you not trust any of the media reports.
                          Are you talking about the Chicago files, or other files?
                          Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                          -Thomas Aquinas

                          I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                          -Hernando Cortez

                          What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                          -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
                            Are you talking about the Chicago files, or other files?
                            Several dioceses have been forced to make some personnel files public, eg, Boston, Chicago, Fort Worth, Los Angeles, Louisville, Philadelphia, San Diego, and some others, but I don't have a complete list.
                            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Well, this thread has gotten thoroughly off-track.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                                Well, this thread has gotten thoroughly off-track.
                                Yup, pretty much.
                                Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                                -Thomas Aquinas

                                I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                                -Hernando Cortez

                                What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                                -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                                Comment

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