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Purgatory

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  • Purgatory

    For those who hold to Purgatory, I'm curious as to the reasoning behind it. I'm very ignorant of the doctrine, and I'm curious: what do you consider the strongest argument(s) for Purgatory? The arguments don't have to be Biblical, although I'm more interested in those.

    So, as a research exercise for me: why do you believe in Purgatory? Be as detailed or simple as you want.
    I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

  • #2
    It is the actualization in our souls of Christ's saving power. We are not, as we are now, prepared for Heaven, but when we die, we are hopefully headed there. Obviously, something has to happen for our still sinful, imperfect selves to be prepared for Heaven. That's purgatory.
    Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
      For those who hold to Purgatory, I'm curious as to the reasoning behind it. I'm very ignorant of the doctrine, and I'm curious: what do you consider the strongest argument(s) for Purgatory? The arguments don't have to be Biblical, although I'm more interested in those.

      So, as a research exercise for me: why do you believe in Purgatory? Be as detailed or simple as you want.
      I'll get to you tomorrow.
      Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

      -Thomas Aquinas

      I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

      -Hernando Cortez

      What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

      -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

      Comment


      • #4
        Alright, I'll go. This is something that I'm a bit ambiguous on, however I can certainly see one scripture that makes a very reasonable and justifiable case to draw from, thought it may not be a descriptive of the traditional view of the "Catholic" purgatory as most view it, it is a descriptive of a purgation.
        "For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3: 11-15. Of course what is most telling in this Scripture is that the work description is that the "work" is revealed on the "day of the Lord" which I take to mean at the Judgement. The better indicator IMO here is that a final sort of "purgation" or cleansing salvation takes place at that Judgement Day, and earthly works are a loss. It does seem to indicate a final purging of what is Holy and what is not, but again, not in the Catholic Holding tank prison sense.

        Which leads me to my next thought, I think the Catholic viewpoint may have evolved out of the lack of understanding of completed grace. Much of Catholicism seems to ride on the continued back of works, punishment and repentance, and it seems that their understanding of purgatory comes from a misunderstanding of what Christ did on Calvary. Not that we don't have to live a Christian life and we ought to challenge ourselves very strongly to behave and for good reason, but the idea of a "prison" appears to result from a very Earthly misunderstanding of justice, rather than a finalization of how God presents himself in Scripture.
        A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
        George Bernard Shaw

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
          It is the actualization in our souls of Christ's saving power. We are not, as we are now, prepared for Heaven, but when we die, we are hopefully headed there. Obviously, something has to happen for our still sinful, imperfect selves to be prepared for Heaven.
          I agree with what you write above. I don't see how it would lead to the necessity of purgatory though.

          In fact, 1 Corinthians 15:50-58 seems to render the concept of purgatory completely useless.

          Source: 1 Corinthians 15:50-58 ESV


          50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

          “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
          55 “O death, where is your victory?
          O death, where is your sting?”
          56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

          58 Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

          © Copyright Original Source



          I.e it seems to me that that which is required for "our still sinful, imperfect selves" to be prepared for Heaven happens at the return of Christ when we receive our resurrection bodies, not in purgatory.
          ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

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          • #6
            Okay, here it is:

            2 Maccabees 46-"Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin. "

            Matthew 12:32- "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."

            1 Corinthians 3:15-" He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire"
            Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

            -Thomas Aquinas

            I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

            -Hernando Cortez

            What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

            -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
              Okay, here it is:

              2 Maccabees 46-"Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin. "

              Matthew 12:32- "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."

              1 Corinthians 3:15-" He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire"
              I can see how 2 Maccabees 46 and 1 Corinthians 3:15 could be perceived as supporting the purgatory doctrine.

              But how on earth could someone read the concept of purgatory into Matthew 12:32?
              ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                I agree with what you write above. I don't see how it would lead to the necessity of purgatory though.

                In fact, 1 Corinthians 15:50-58 seems to render the concept of purgatory completely useless.

                Source: 1 Corinthians 15:50-58 ESV


                50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

                “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
                55 “O death, where is your victory?
                O death, where is your sting?”
                56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

                58 Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

                © Copyright Original Source



                I.e it seems to me that that which is required for "our still sinful, imperfect selves" to be prepared for Heaven happens at the return of Christ when we receive our resurrection bodies, not in purgatory.
                Do you believe that our bodies are the only thing holding us back from being sinless? That our sinfulness has nothing to do with mind or soul?
                Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                  I can see how 2 Maccabees 46 and 1 Corinthians 3:15 could be perceived as supporting the purgatory doctrine.

                  But how on earth could someone read the concept of purgatory into Matthew 12:32?
                  Because it implies that it's possible for people to be forgiven in "the age to come".
                  Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                  -Thomas Aquinas

                  I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                  -Hernando Cortez

                  What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                  -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    so what happens in purgatory? Are you flailed with whips? burn in sulfur? Sit around and watch TV? Get locked in a room and have to pray for forgiveness for a certain period of time?

                    Exactly how is the sinfulness "purged" from you so you can go to heaven?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      so what happens in purgatory? Are you flailed with whips? burn in sulfur? Sit around and watch TV? Get locked in a room and have to pray for forgiveness for a certain period of time?

                      Exactly how is the sinfulness "purged" from you so you can go to heaven?
                      The best I can conclude from any Scriptural evidence is that something happens between the man whose work is being judged, and the Spirit of God. I see no other evidence for the Traditional Catholic view of Purgatory.
                      A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
                      George Bernard Shaw

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        so what happens in purgatory? Are you flailed with whips? burn in sulfur? Sit around and watch TV? Get locked in a room and have to pray for forgiveness for a certain period of time?

                        Exactly how is the sinfulness "purged" from you so you can go to heaven?
                        You have to give back all the bacon you stole from others. Unless the pope has stolen more bacon, in which case, the two of you may agree that this may be unrealistic. When the time comes, God will set you both straight if everyone can't agree before then.
                        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
                          The best I can conclude from any Scriptural evidence is that something happens between the man whose work is being judged, and the Spirit of God. I see no other evidence for the Traditional Catholic view of Purgatory.
                          Yeah.
                          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
                            Because it implies that it's possible for people to be forgiven in "the age to come".
                            Isn't purgatory right now, not the age to come? It seems to me that at the final judgment, there are only two places to go.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              Isn't purgatory right now, not the age to come? It seems to me that at the final judgment, there are only two places to go.
                              I kinda get the feeling that a lot of this stuff is made up on the fly.

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