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Discussion on matters of general mainstream Christian churches. What are the differences between Catholics and protestants? How has the charismatic movement affected the church? Are Southern baptists different from fundamentalist baptists? It is also for discussions about the nature of the church.

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Indulgences

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  • Spartacus
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    OK. so if the church has this power to alleviate punishment, why does it not just use that power to help everyone? Why do they use it as a currency to get things from people?
    You're ignoring the conditional part of the statement. If this, then that.

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  • Darth Executor
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    OK. so if the church has this power to alleviate punishment, why does it not just use that power to help everyone? Why do they use it as a currency to get things from people?
    The church doesn't have the power to alleviate punishment. The buying of indulgences is just a good deed performed by the buyer to alleviate punishment and similar in nature to, say, feeding the poor. Mind you, I'm skeptical of whether this was actually the RCC theology but I can't be bothered to do the research and don't really care. But that's the gist of what TT/Robrecht are saying.

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  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
    The Catholic teaching is that, for any sin committed, after it is forgiven, you still must do penance for it by spending the corresponding time in purgatory (whatever that may be). Say you committed a sin such as murder, and you're really sorry for it. If you do something to help they Church, or its people, to prove yourself, they can alleviate you of the temporal punishment (AKA time in purgatory) for that sin. That's what an "Indulgence" does.
    OK. so if the church has this power to alleviate punishment, why does it not just use that power to help everyone? Why do they use it as a currency to get things from people?

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  • Zymologist
    replied
    Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
    Well, if you want scriptural support of purgatory, I can give you that, though I don't want to derail the thread.
    Ok, fair enough. I just figured I'd express my interest in the topic.

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  • robrecht
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    huh?
    Indulgences don't do anything, people do.

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  • TimelessTheist
    replied
    Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
    FWIW, I find that particular question very interesting, so (whether it's relevant or not) I, at least, would read the exchange with great interest.
    Well, if you want scriptural support of purgatory, I can give you that, though I don't want to derail the thread.

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  • Zymologist
    replied
    Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post

    Irrelevant to the case at hand.
    FWIW, I find that particular question very interesting, so (whether it's relevant or not) I, at least, would read the exchange with great interest.

    Leave a comment:


  • TimelessTheist
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    That doesn't tell me what they DO. If someone gets an indulgence, what does that mean for them?
    The Catholic teaching is that, for any sin committed, after it is forgiven, you still must do penance for it by spending the corresponding time in purgatory (whatever that may be). Say you committed a sin such as murder, and you're really sorry for it. If you do something to help they Church, or its people, to prove yourself, they can alleviate you of the temporal punishment (AKA time in purgatory) for that sin. That's what an "Indulgence" does.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    It is not what the indulgence does, it is what the recipient does, namely repentance.
    huh?

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  • TimelessTheist
    replied
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    I didn't miss that part; in fact, it prompted my follow-on question. If the RCC taught people properly what they did, then the system would not have been open for abuse, which appears to answer my follow-on question.
    Any system is open to abuse, and there are many real world examples of con-men convincing people of things that clearly aren't true.

    I question how clearly the higher-ups did not condone this improper meaning at the time. Later attempts at rehabilitation are good, but do not establish that.
    What "time" are you talking about, exactly? I know they held a council in order to restrict the abuse of indulgences, after word got around that Pardoners were selling them past the legal limit, and promising people all kinds of things about them that weren't true.

    I'd like some support for the assertion that sins which are already forgiven require temporal punishment.
    Irrelevant to the case at hand.

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  • robrecht
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    That doesn't tell me what they DO. If someone gets an indulgence, what does that mean for them?
    It is not what the indulgence does, it is what the recipient does, namely repentance.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    Initially, they were supposed to encourage support for good works, eg, hospitals, alms giving as a concrete expression of repentance. But, alas, there are no short cuts and you generally can't trust sales men. The Kingdom of God does not need aluminum siding.
    That doesn't tell me what they DO. If someone gets an indulgence, what does that mean for them?

    Leave a comment:


  • robrecht
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    OK so what DO indulgences do?
    Initially, they were supposed to encourage support for good works, eg, hospitals, alms giving as a concrete expression of repentance. But, alas, there are no short cuts and you generally can't trust sales men. The Kingdom of God does not need aluminum siding.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    OK so what DO indulgences do?

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  • robrecht
    replied
    If the Roman Catholic Church taught people properly, there would be no war, no hunger, no injustice of any kind. Alas, we have failed miserably. We should all repent and believe in the Kingdom of God. By the way, Purgatory was invented as a place of repentance for those of us who are slow learners. We may need a little more time. For those of us who believe that God is at least as merciful as my first grade teacher, Sister Larkin, peace be upon her.

    Leave a comment:

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