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Discussion on matters of general mainstream Christian churches. What are the differences between Catholics and protestants? How has the charismatic movement affected the church? Are Southern baptists different from fundamentalist baptists? It is also for discussions about the nature of the church.

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Indulgences

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  • #91
    DANGIT! We derailed the thread!!!
    Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

    -Thomas Aquinas

    I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

    -Hernando Cortez

    What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

    -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

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    • #92
      Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
      P.S. (Missed this point)



      Yeah, that was bad, no doubting it. The history says that the Crusader princes lost control of their troops once they gained control of the wall and stormed the gates, and the troops were apparently already caught up in so much bloodshed and chaos, that they just attacked everything in sight that wasn't them. So, yeah, it was bad, but at least the commanding Crusader princes didn't command, or condone it.

      I've never been in war, especially not a Medieval war, where all the troops are tightly packed together, and fighting against another tightly packed group right in front of their faces, so I can't really say whether all the killing was out of malice, or whether it was out of confusion or panic.
      I've seen one source which intimated that much of the slaughter was deliberate (so they wouldn't have to deal with a potentially hostile force at their backs once they moved the majority of their troops elsewhere to continue the attack). The source is not unimpeachable (about.history.com), but on the other hand I've seen precious few representations of the Crusader leaders as worthy of emulation. And once they got into the city (through the surrender of a tower), there seems to have been little armed resistance.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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      • #93
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        I've seen one source which intimated that much of the slaughter was deliberate (so they wouldn't have to deal with a potentially hostile force at their backs once they moved the majority of their troops elsewhere to continue the attack). The source is not unimpeachable (about.history.com), but on the other hand I've seen precious few representations of the Crusader leaders as worthy of emulation. And once they got into the city (through the surrender of a tower), there seems to have been little armed resistance.
        Uh, even your own source says nothing about it being deliberate...or at least the one I found by searching about.history.com. Anyway, a lot of scholars insist that killings such as these were commonplace for many sieges back then. Heck, a Crusader might point out that modern bombing runs kill more innocent people than the sacking of cities ever could. It basically just boils down to "war isn't pretty".

        but on the other hand I've seen precious few representations of the Crusader leaders as worthy of emulation.
        I don't agree. Apart from a select few, I think the ones who fight against invading, slaughtering, enslaving, child-rapists (The Ottomans had a real thing for kidnapping prepubescent boys, and turning them into sex slaves) is worthy of adoration. Aside from a few, select ones, such as Reynald of Chatillon. I know that there were a few bad ones, but saying that none of them are worthy of adoration is just overdoing it.
        Last edited by TimelessTheist; 07-14-2014, 04:25 AM.
        Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

        -Thomas Aquinas

        I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

        -Hernando Cortez

        What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

        -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Paprika View Post
          I've read it. The only pre-rabbinic sources cited seem to be II Maccabees and Testament of Abraham. II Maccabees doesn't explictly talk about purgatory; Testament of Abraham's dating may be post-Second Temple.
          There's not much available for individual Jewish opinions during this time. For example, we hear of the opinions of the schools of Hillel and Shammai, but hardly anything from Hillel and Shammai themselves and the Talmud is, of course, very late. Rabbi Akiba was born prior to the destruction of the Temple and is quoted with a definite opinion on the matter. The Dead Sea Scrolls were not yet discovered when the Jewish Encyclopedia was written, but they don't help all that much since they seem to have belonged mostly within the Sadducean stream of thought. They did have a copy of the Book of Tobit at Qumran, which has a vague reference that seems to relate to praying for the dead at the time of burial. Are you thinking that within the emerging Jewish belief in the afterlife, some sense of a transitional stage only occurred after the destruction of the Temple? I've never studied this question, but to do so, one has to deal with sources that are not always easy to date.

          I just came across the passage (cited earlier in the Jewish Encyclopedia) in the Talmud that attributes the belief in purgatory to the House of Shammai, characteristically in opposition to the position of the House of Hillel. If this were genuinely to date back to Shammai, then it would certainly predate Jesus, who sides with the House of Shammai in some important rigorist positions, eg, divorce.
          The House of Shammai say, “[There will be] three groups on the Day of Judgment [when the dead will rise]: one comprised of the thoroughly righteous, one comprised of the thoroughly wicked, and one of middling [people].

          “The thoroughly righteous immediately are inscribed and sealed for eternal life.

          “The thoroughly wicked immediately are inscribed and sealed for Gehenna,

          “as it is written [Dan. 12: 2]: ‘And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to eternal life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.’

          “Middling [people] go down to Gehenna, scream [in prayer], and rise [again], “as it is written [Zec. 13: 9]: ‘And I will put this third into the fire and refine them as one refines silver and test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name, and I will answer them.’

          Bavli Rosh HaShannah 16b-17a (Jacob Neusner)
          Last edited by robrecht; 07-12-2014, 06:50 PM.
          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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