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Discussion on matters of general mainstream Christian churches. What are the differences between Catholics and protestants? How has the charismatic movement affected the church? Are Southern baptists different from fundamentalist baptists? It is also for discussions about the nature of the church.

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Indulgences

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  • robrecht
    replied
    Originally posted by Paprika View Post
    I've read it. The only pre-rabbinic sources cited seem to be II Maccabees and Testament of Abraham. II Maccabees doesn't explictly talk about purgatory; Testament of Abraham's dating may be post-Second Temple.
    There's not much available for individual Jewish opinions during this time. For example, we hear of the opinions of the schools of Hillel and Shammai, but hardly anything from Hillel and Shammai themselves and the Talmud is, of course, very late. Rabbi Akiba was born prior to the destruction of the Temple and is quoted with a definite opinion on the matter. The Dead Sea Scrolls were not yet discovered when the Jewish Encyclopedia was written, but they don't help all that much since they may have belonged within the Sadducean stream of thought. They did have a copy of the Book of Tobit at Qumran, which has a vague reference that seems to relate to praying for the dead at the time of burial. Are you thinking that within the emerging Jewish belief in the afterlife, some sense of a transitional stage only occurred after the destruction of the Temple? I've never studied this question, but to do so, one has to deal with sources that are not always easy to date.

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  • Paprika
    replied
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    Read the whole entry. I only quoted the part that related to the followers of Hillel and Shammai, both of whom lived during the 2nd Temple, by the way, because you had asked about Hilllel earlier.
    I've read it. The only pre-rabbinic sources cited seem to be II Maccabees and Testament of Abraham. II Maccabees doesn't explictly talk about purgatory; Testament of Abraham's dating may be post-Second Temple.

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  • robrecht
    replied
    Originally posted by Paprika View Post
    Indeed, but I was wondering about second-Temple Judaism.
    Read the whole entry. I only quoted the part that related to the followers of Hillel and Shammai, both of whom lived during the 2nd Temple, by the way, because you had asked about Hilllel earlier.

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  • Paprika
    replied
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    Quick Google search answers your question:

    The view of purgatory is still more clearly expressed in rabbinical passages
    Indeed, but I was wondering about second-Temple Judaism.

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  • robrecht
    replied
    Originally posted by Paprika View Post
    Just to confirm: the idea of a interim period in purgatory makes no sense within Judaism?
    Quick Google search answers your question:
    The view of purgatory is still more clearly expressed in rabbinical passages, as in the teaching of the Shammaites: "In the last judgment day there shall be three classes of souls: the righteous shall at once be written down for the life everlasting; the wicked, for Gehenna; but those whose virtues and sins counterbalance one another shall go down to Gehenna and float up and down until they rise purified; for of them it is said: 'I will bring the third part into the fire and refine them as silver is refined, and try them as gold is tried' [Zech. xiii. 9.]; also, 'He [the Lord] bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up again'" (I Sam. ii. 6). The Hillelites seem to have had no purgatory; for they said: "He who is 'plenteous in mercy' [Ex. xxxiv. 6.] inclines the balance toward mercy, and consequently the intermediates do not descend into Gehenna" (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 3; R. H. 16b; Bacher, "Ag. Tan." i. 18). Still they also speak of an intermediate state.

    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/ar...2446-purgatory
    Last edited by robrecht; 05-30-2014, 01:38 AM.

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  • Paprika
    replied
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    I don't think it does. Sorry, I thought that would go without saying since Hillel probably would not have believed in it.
    Just to confirm: the idea of a interim period in purgatory makes no sense within Judaism?

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  • robrecht
    replied
    Originally posted by Paprika View Post
    All right, but could you answer my questions anyway?
    I don't think it does. Sorry, I thought that would go without saying since Hillel probably would not have believed in it.

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  • Paprika
    replied
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    No, I was just quoting his signature line, "If not now, when?" It is better to repent now than later, especially if you're not sure there will be a later.
    All right, but could you answer my questions anyway?

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  • robrecht
    replied
    Originally posted by Paprika View Post
    If this isn't going to derail too much: did Hillel conceive of a purgatory? How does purgatory make sense, if any, within (second-Temple) Judaism?
    No, I was just quoting his signature line, "If not now, when?" It is better to repent now than later, especially if you're not sure there will be a later.

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  • Paprika
    replied
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    The popes (and others) believed it was better for you to accomplish your repentance now, here on earth, when you can benefit your fellow man directly. As Hillel said, "if not now, when?" Who's to say that God disagrees?
    If this isn't going to derail too much: did Hillel conceive of a purgatory? How does purgatory make sense, if any, within (second-Temple) Judaism?

    Leave a comment:


  • Paprika
    replied
    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
    You have to understand, that if all of this is true, then the Catholic Church is the Church Christ established.
    ...
    Outside of the notion of tradition, and the authority of the magisterium, I wouldn't be interested in the notion of indulgences either. I can just explain it, as best I can and perhaps deal with objections to it. Your real beef is with the authority of the Church.
    I sense a circle forming.

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  • Catholicity
    replied
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    Do you think I'm that naive?
    Sure.....


























    I tried to type that with a straight face

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  • TimelessTheist
    replied
    Dangit. I'm pretty sure this is going to lead to derailing the thread.

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  • TimelessTheist
    replied
    Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
    the primary criticism is that the crusades allowed for greed and violence to go unchecked by all involved.
    Please cite some examples. Or rather, you'd have to cite around a hundred examples to prove that greed and violence when unchecked by "all involved".

    If your given an order "kill and take" well what do you think is going to happen?"
    I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. What exactly is the context of that order? If it was in the context of an enemy city, such as Jerusalem, then "kill and take" would be a pretty standard act of warfare.

    abuse of the indulgence system here to "go to war"
    What "abuse"? They're fighting and dying to defend Christendom from Islamic Jihadists that sought to conquer them all. How is that not reason enough to receive an indulgence?

    which sparked the massive reformation.
    You mean the "massive reformation" that nobody, save for the kings and princes, actually wanted? Which caused the kings and princes to force the reformation on their people, through ways of deceit, military oppression, and, in the case of Denmark and Norway, civil war?
    Last edited by TimelessTheist; 05-29-2014, 10:28 PM.

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  • TimelessTheist
    replied
    Turn down the hyperbole, big boy. Bombast doesn't faze me. Pope Urban may have called the First Crusade, but I'm fairly certain he didn't call all of them. Regardless, was anyone actually excommunicated for their actions during the Crusades? The Crusaders were in general no choirboys.
    Well, you should probably stop your accusations of them being allowed to "do whatever they want" then. I've never heard of such an accusation, and I'd like some substantiation for it.

    As for the Crusaders being "no choirboys", well, I never exactly said I agreed with the actions of 'every' Crusader, as there are unsavory members in every army. I already have in mind some of them the things you're going to bring up, but please, could you give me some examples?

    Are you the thread starter now? One almost gets the notion you're reluctant to discuss the topic.
    I just don't want to derail the thread. There's already another thread on Purgatory, that was just created. I'll probably post anything I have there.

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