Originally posted by Paprika
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream Christian churches. What are the differences between Catholics and protestants? How has the charismatic movement affected the church? Are Southern baptists different from fundamentalist baptists? It is also for discussions about the nature of the church.
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and theists. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions. Additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and theists. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions. Additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101.
Forum Rules: Here
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Indulgences
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostRead the whole entry. I only quoted the part that related to the followers of Hillel and Shammai, both of whom lived during the 2nd Temple, by the way, because you had asked about Hilllel earlier.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostIndeed, but I was wondering about second-Temple Judaism.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostJust to confirm: the idea of a interim period in purgatory makes no sense within Judaism?
The view of purgatory is still more clearly expressed in rabbinical passages, as in the teaching of the Shammaites: "In the last judgment day there shall be three classes of souls: the righteous shall at once be written down for the life everlasting; the wicked, for Gehenna; but those whose virtues and sins counterbalance one another shall go down to Gehenna and float up and down until they rise purified; for of them it is said: 'I will bring the third part into the fire and refine them as silver is refined, and try them as gold is tried' [Zech. xiii. 9.]; also, 'He [the Lord] bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up again'" (I Sam. ii. 6). The Hillelites seem to have had no purgatory; for they said: "He who is 'plenteous in mercy' [Ex. xxxiv. 6.] inclines the balance toward mercy, and consequently the intermediates do not descend into Gehenna" (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 3; R. H. 16b; Bacher, "Ag. Tan." i. 18). Still they also speak of an intermediate state.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/ar...2446-purgatoryLast edited by robrecht; 05-30-2014, 01:38 AM.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostIf this isn't going to derail too much: did Hillel conceive of a purgatory? How does purgatory make sense, if any, within (second-Temple) Judaism?
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostThe popes (and others) believed it was better for you to accomplish your repentance now, here on earth, when you can benefit your fellow man directly. As Hillel said, "if not now, when?" Who's to say that God disagrees?
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostYou have to understand, that if all of this is true, then the Catholic Church is the Church Christ established.
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Outside of the notion of tradition, and the authority of the magisterium, I wouldn't be interested in the notion of indulgences either. I can just explain it, as best I can and perhaps deal with objections to it. Your real beef is with the authority of the Church.
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostDo you think I'm that naive?
I tried to type that with a straight face
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Dangit. I'm pretty sure this is going to lead to derailing the thread.
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Originally posted by Catholicity View Postthe primary criticism is that the crusades allowed for greed and violence to go unchecked by all involved.
If your given an order "kill and take" well what do you think is going to happen?"
abuse of the indulgence system here to "go to war"
which sparked the massive reformation.Last edited by TimelessTheist; 05-29-2014, 10:28 PM.
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Turn down the hyperbole, big boy. Bombast doesn't faze me. Pope Urban may have called the First Crusade, but I'm fairly certain he didn't call all of them. Regardless, was anyone actually excommunicated for their actions during the Crusades? The Crusaders were in general no choirboys.
As for the Crusaders being "no choirboys", well, I never exactly said I agreed with the actions of 'every' Crusader, as there are unsavory members in every army. I already have in mind some of them the things you're going to bring up, but please, could you give me some examples?
Are you the thread starter now? One almost gets the notion you're reluctant to discuss the topic.
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