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Discussion on matters of general mainstream Christian churches. What are the differences between Catholics and protestants? How has the charismatic movement affected the church? Are Southern baptists different from fundamentalist baptists? It is also for discussions about the nature of the church.

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Indulgences

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  • #16
    Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
    Well, if you want scriptural support of purgatory, I can give you that, though I don't want to derail the thread.
    Ok, fair enough. I just figured I'd express my interest in the topic.
    I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
      The Catholic teaching is that, for any sin committed, after it is forgiven, you still must do penance for it by spending the corresponding time in purgatory (whatever that may be). Say you committed a sin such as murder, and you're really sorry for it. If you do something to help they Church, or its people, to prove yourself, they can alleviate you of the temporal punishment (AKA time in purgatory) for that sin. That's what an "Indulgence" does.
      OK. so if the church has this power to alleviate punishment, why does it not just use that power to help everyone? Why do they use it as a currency to get things from people?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        OK. so if the church has this power to alleviate punishment, why does it not just use that power to help everyone? Why do they use it as a currency to get things from people?
        The church doesn't have the power to alleviate punishment. The buying of indulgences is just a good deed performed by the buyer to alleviate punishment and similar in nature to, say, feeding the poor. Mind you, I'm skeptical of whether this was actually the RCC theology but I can't be bothered to do the research and don't really care. But that's the gist of what TT/Robrecht are saying.
        "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

        There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          OK. so if the church has this power to alleviate punishment, why does it not just use that power to help everyone? Why do they use it as a currency to get things from people?
          You're ignoring the conditional part of the statement. If this, then that.
          Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
            You're ignoring the conditional part of the statement. If this, then that.
            explain.

            1. If I am sorry about some sin I committed and ask for forgiveness, I am granted that forgiveness right? I am already sorry for the sin and want to be forgiven. I have repented.
            2. But I still 'owe' payment of some temporal punishment for the sin.
            3. The church can give me an indulgence that alleviates at least some of that punishment.
            4. Why doesn't the church alleviate all punishment that it has the power to for all of the sins that people owe temporal punishment for as long as they are repentant of those sins? Why dole it out bit by bit as an "indulgence"?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
              You're ignoring the conditional part of the statement. If this, then that.
              Precisely.
              Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

              -Thomas Aquinas

              I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

              -Hernando Cortez

              What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

              -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                4. Why doesn't the church alleviate all punishment that it has the power to for all of the sins that people owe temporal punishment for as long as they are repentant of those sins? Why dole it out bit by bit as an "indulgence"?
                It is possible to get a full remission of all tempoary punishment, but it has a couple of requirements:

                1. You must have confessed your sins not too long ago and received the sacrament of penance.
                2. You must have received communion that day.
                3. You must have no attachments to sin. This means at least no gravely sinful habits and no venial sin you're not trying to rid yourself of.

                If during that you perform one of the plenary indulgence acts... say... say the rosary in church, or in a public oratory, or at home with the family. That's sufficient to gain a total remission of all temporal punishment, if you've also prayed for the popes intentions.

                Another way is to read the bible for half an hour, reverently, with devotion on a Sunday. There's tons of plenary indulgences, and even more partial indulgences. You can even give them all to the souls in purgatory if you wish, and then leave the question of how long your stay will be to Christ. In some sense this is a sign of trust, that if you've graciously given all the indulgences away for their behalf, then when its your turn Christ will apply the indulgences needed for your soul to go straight to Heaven.

                Since it requires acts on the part of the penitent, the Church can't simple remit the sins. Its been parcelled out to various acts of devotions to encourage growth in the devoted life.

                Unlike some protestant conceptions of Heaven, we're not there on toleration from God. When you enter Heaven the slate is truly clean, there are neither any stains, or any form of guilt left. You're not simple covered with the white cloth of Christ's righteousness, you're made to be clean white snow like Him.

                That's how I understand it, though I'm fairly new to Catholicism.
                Last edited by Leonhard; 05-29-2014, 02:51 PM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                  It is possible to get a full remission of all tempoary punishment, but it has a couple of requirements:

                  1. You must have confessed your sins not too long ago and received the sacrament of penance.
                  2. You must have received communion that day.
                  3. You must have no attachments to sin. This means at least no gravely sinful habits and no venial sin you're not trying to rid yourself of.

                  If during that you perform one of the plenary indulgence acts... say... say the rosary in church, or in a public oratory, or at home with the family. That's sufficient to gain a total remission of all temporal punishment, if you've also prayed for the popes intentions.

                  Another way is to read the bible for half an hour, reverently, with devotion on a Sunday. There's tons of plenary indulgences, and even more partial indulgences. You can even give them all to the souls in purgatory if you wish, and then leave the question of how long your stay will be to Christ. In some sense this is a sign of trust, that if you've graciously given all the indulgences away for their behalf, then when its your turn Christ will apply the indulgences needed for your soul to go straight to Heaven.

                  Since it requires acts on the part of the penitent, the Church can't simple remit the sins. Its been parcelled out to various acts of devotions to encourage growth in the devoted life.

                  Unlike some protestant conceptions of Heaven, we're not there on toleration from God. When you enter Heaven the slate is truly clean, there are neither any stains, or any form of guilt left. You're not simple covered with the white cloth of Christ's righteousness, you're made to be clean white snow like Him.

                  That's how I understand it, though I'm fairly new to Catholicism.
                  OK so where does the idea of giving indulgences out to people who donate to the church come in? Or do something special? Where does the type of indulgences that the pope hands out come in? Obviously there is more to it than someone doing some act of contrition without the church being involved at all, or it would never have been a scandal back in the day of Martin Luther.

                  I get the idea that everyone in this thread is tip-toeing around the elephant in the room.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    OK so where does the idea of giving indulgences out to people who donate to the church come in? Or do something special? Where does the type of indulgences that the pope hands out come in? Obviously there is more to it than someone doing some act of contrition without the church being involved at all, or it would never have been a scandal back in the day of Martin Luther.

                    I get the idea that everyone in this thread is tip-toeing around the elephant in the room.
                    I'm not expert so take this as a newbie Catholics best attempt to explain. Its based ultimately on the idea of merit, which is something that is taught as part of sacred tradition. This comes down to a different view of what salvation is, how its attained, and what it means for us to gain glory Heaven. It also involves the idea, that the saints in the Heaven, care for us and can intercede for us. The Church overtime gets a treasury of merit, that the Holy Father can decide to pass out for appropriate actions.

                    So the Church is very much involved.

                    I don't know the history of indulgences being bought and sold, but that practice has ended. In fact I don't know if its was even good back then, since it comes close to the sin of Simony. You cannot buy blessings, that's a sin.
                    Last edited by Leonhard; 05-29-2014, 03:05 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      I'm not expert so take this as a newbie Catholics best attempt to explain. Its based ultimately on the idea of merit, which is something that is taught as part of sacred tradition. This comes down to a different view of what salvation, and what it means for us to gain glory Heaven. It also involves the idea, that the saints in the Heaven, care for us and can intercede for us. The Church overtime gets a treasury of merit, that the Holy Father can decide to pass out for appropriate actions.

                      So the Church is very much involved.

                      I don't know the history of indulgences being bought and sold, but that practice has ended. In fact I don't know if its was even good back then, since it comes close to the sin of Simony. You cannot buy blessings, that's a sin.
                      It all sounds to me like a way to say "yes, you are forgiven for your sins, but not really. You still have to be punished. But luckily we have the solution to that if you do what we want you to. Isn't that lucky?"

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        ... I get the idea that everyone in this thread is tip-toeing around the elephant in the room.
                        Remissio tamen et participatio Pape nullo modo est contemnenda, quia (ut dixi) est declaratio remissionis divine.
                        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                          Remissio tamen et participatio Pape nullo modo est contemnenda, quia (ut dixi) est declaratio remissionis divine.
                          extremum digiti in tulips.

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                          • #28
                            Contra veniarum apostolicarum veritatem qui loquitur, sit ille anathema et maladictus.
                            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                            • #29
                              Docendi sunt christiani, quod si Papa nosset exactiones venialium predicatorum, mallet Basilicam s. Petri in cineres ire quam edificari cute, carne et ossibus ovium suarum.
                              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                              • #30
                                Thesauri ecclesie, unde Pape dat indulgentias, neque satis nominati sunt neque cogniti apud populum Christi.
                                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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