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Indulgences

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  • Indulgences

    New thread, so CP's doesn't veer wildly off-topic.

    Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
    [Martin Luther's] critism of the sale of indulgences was unfounded, as that was a practice that the Church did many times in the past as well, to fund projects such as cathedrals and the Crusades, although I agree that many people loweron the rung did abuse the system, however, if you actually know what an indulgence actually does, the proposition that people can "buy forgiveness" is clearly unfounded.
    Can you expound on this defense of indulgences? Can you demonstrate that the people who bought indulgences understood what (in your opinion) they actually do?
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  • #2
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    New thread, so CP's doesn't veer wildly off-topic.


    Can you expound on this defense of indulgences? Can you demonstrate that the people who bought indulgences understood what (in your opinion) they actually do?
    You missed the part where I said "people lower on the rung sometimes abused this". A minority of Pardoners started telling people that, instead of simply allieviating temporal punishment in purgatory for sins already forgiven (which is what they actually did) they started telling people tgat indulgences could forgive sins, and even garentee salvation. Although a disgusting display, it's extremely clear that the higher-ups in the church did 'not' condone this, as evidenced by the limits and restrictions later put on the sale of indulgences, in an attempt to solve the problem. However, some people ignored even these restrictions, which eventually lead to the banning of the sales altogether.

    What I'm trying to get at is, the Church has never taught that they did any more than what they were supposed to do.
    Last edited by TimelessTheist; 05-29-2014, 01:16 PM.
    Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

    -Thomas Aquinas

    I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

    -Hernando Cortez

    What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

    -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

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    • #3
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      New thread, so CP's doesn't veer wildly off-topic.
      Thanks, OBP... both for starting a new thread, and for pursuing this topic. I was puzzled by TT's responses.
      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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      • #4
        Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
        You missed the part where I said "people lower on the rung sometimes abused this". A minority of Pardoners started telling people that, instead of simply allieviating temporal punishment in purgatory for sins already forgiven (which is what they actually did) they started telling people tgat indulgences could forgive sins, and even garentee salvation. Although a disgusting display, it's extremely clear that the higher-ups in the church did 'not' condone this, as evidenced by the limits and restrictions later put on the sale of indulgences, in an attempt to solve the problem. However, some people ignored even these restrictions, which eventually lead to the banning of the sales altogether.

        What I'm trying to get at is, the Church has never taught that they did any more than what they were supposed to do.
        I didn't miss that part; in fact, it prompted my follow-on question. If the RCC taught people properly what they did, then the system would not have been open for abuse, which appears to answer my follow-on question. I question how clearly the higher-ups did not condone this improper meaning at the time. Later attempts at rehabilitation are good, but do not establish that.

        I'd like some support for the assertion that sins which are already forgiven require temporal punishment.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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        • #5
          If the Roman Catholic Church taught people properly, there would be no war, no hunger, no injustice of any kind. Alas, we have failed miserably. We should all repent and believe in the Kingdom of God. By the way, Purgatory was invented as a place of repentance for those of us who are slow learners. We may need a little more time. For those of us who believe that God is at least as merciful as my first grade teacher, Sister Larkin, peace be upon her.
          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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          • #6
            OK so what DO indulgences do?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              OK so what DO indulgences do?
              Initially, they were supposed to encourage support for good works, eg, hospitals, alms giving as a concrete expression of repentance. But, alas, there are no short cuts and you generally can't trust sales men. The Kingdom of God does not need aluminum siding.
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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              • #8
                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                Initially, they were supposed to encourage support for good works, eg, hospitals, alms giving as a concrete expression of repentance. But, alas, there are no short cuts and you generally can't trust sales men. The Kingdom of God does not need aluminum siding.
                That doesn't tell me what they DO. If someone gets an indulgence, what does that mean for them?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  That doesn't tell me what they DO. If someone gets an indulgence, what does that mean for them?
                  It is not what the indulgence does, it is what the recipient does, namely repentance.
                  βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                  ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    I didn't miss that part; in fact, it prompted my follow-on question. If the RCC taught people properly what they did, then the system would not have been open for abuse, which appears to answer my follow-on question.
                    Any system is open to abuse, and there are many real world examples of con-men convincing people of things that clearly aren't true.

                    I question how clearly the higher-ups did not condone this improper meaning at the time. Later attempts at rehabilitation are good, but do not establish that.
                    What "time" are you talking about, exactly? I know they held a council in order to restrict the abuse of indulgences, after word got around that Pardoners were selling them past the legal limit, and promising people all kinds of things about them that weren't true.

                    I'd like some support for the assertion that sins which are already forgiven require temporal punishment.
                    Irrelevant to the case at hand.
                    Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                    -Thomas Aquinas

                    I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                    -Hernando Cortez

                    What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                    -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                      It is not what the indulgence does, it is what the recipient does, namely repentance.
                      huh?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        That doesn't tell me what they DO. If someone gets an indulgence, what does that mean for them?
                        The Catholic teaching is that, for any sin committed, after it is forgiven, you still must do penance for it by spending the corresponding time in purgatory (whatever that may be). Say you committed a sin such as murder, and you're really sorry for it. If you do something to help they Church, or its people, to prove yourself, they can alleviate you of the temporal punishment (AKA time in purgatory) for that sin. That's what an "Indulgence" does.
                        Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                        -Thomas Aquinas

                        I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                        -Hernando Cortez

                        What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                        -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post

                          Irrelevant to the case at hand.
                          FWIW, I find that particular question very interesting, so (whether it's relevant or not) I, at least, would read the exchange with great interest.
                          I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                            FWIW, I find that particular question very interesting, so (whether it's relevant or not) I, at least, would read the exchange with great interest.
                            Well, if you want scriptural support of purgatory, I can give you that, though I don't want to derail the thread.
                            Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                            -Thomas Aquinas

                            I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                            -Hernando Cortez

                            What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                            -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              huh?
                              Indulgences don't do anything, people do.
                              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                              Comment

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