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. . . the Real Presence in the Eucharist or another Jesus another gospel.

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  • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    They believed that what they worshiped is ok to worship.
    All that means is that Paul did not share their beliefs, not that he misrepresented or misundersoood their beliefs or that they thought he did.

    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    Paul said no.
    No, you do not believe in any sacraments? Do you have any awareness of sacramental theology? Have you read any works of sacramental theology, for example, that of Edward Schillebeeckx, or any other theologians?
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

    Comment


    • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
      All that means is that Paul did not share their beliefs, not that he misrepresented or misundersoood their beliefs or that they thought he did.
      The same with me.
      ----------------------------------------

      Paul said no in regards to them believing it was ok to worship their gods.

      I have read about sacramental theology from the TDNT and NIDNTT. Other than that it's been too long for me to remember that far back.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
        The same with me.
        ----------------------------------------

        Paul said no in regards to them believing it was ok to worship their gods.

        I have read about sacramental theology from the TDNT and NIDNTT. Other than that it's been too long for me to remember that far back.
        No, you are not the same as St Paul. We know for a fact that Catholics do not think that you understand or have correctly characterized their sacramental theology. I suggest you first try to understand before you criticize. Otherwise, Catholics will just continue to dismiss everything you say as based on ignorance, even a lack of desire to understand, an indifferent attitude towards misrepresentation, and a willingness to offend others whose beliefs you do not even care to understand. I recommend Christ the Sacrament of the Encounter With God by Edward Schillebeeckx. Once you've understood Catholic theology, of the sacraments, I look forward to your intelligent and informed critique.
        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

        Comment


        • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
          No, you are not the same as St Paul.
          Never claimed I was but he did say that we are to be imitators of him (1 Corinthians 4:16).

          I do understand what I criticize....see Post #128.

          Back to where we started. Here are the first two sentences of what I posted.

          Here:

          The wafer is to be worshiped by Roman Catholics.
          They believe the Eucharist is literally the body, blood, soul and divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ.



          This is what they believe. You rambled on and on about mischaracterizing them....now try dealing with the facts on hand.
          Last edited by foudroyant; 06-12-2014, 08:45 AM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
            Never claimed I was but he did say that we are to be imitators of him (1 Corinthians 4:16).

            I do understand what I criticize....see Post #128.

            Back to where we started. Here are the first two sentences of what I posted.

            Here:

            The wafer is to be worshiped by Roman Catholics.
            They believe the Eucharist is literally the body, blood, soul and divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

            This is what they believe. You rambled on and on about mischaracterizing them....now try dealing with the facts on hand.
            We're just going around in circles. You think you are correctly characterizing Catholic sacramental theology; It seems to me you are ignorant of Catholic sacramental theology. You don't think it matters if the people whose views you criticize think you have correctly understood their beliefs. I don't think the conversation is even meaningful if that is not at least a goal of the conversation, if not already a prerequisite. I've recommended a modern classic of Catholic sacramental theology. You are not required to read it, especially if you do not care if you are dismissed by the very people you are presumably trying to convince. If you do not want to be taken seriously, I will support you in that goal. I wish you much success. You've already convinced me.
            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

            Comment


            • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
              It seems to me you are ignorant of Catholic sacramental theology.
              Incredible.........


              From my previous post.

              The wafer is to be worshiped by Roman Catholics.
              They believe the Eucharist is literally the body, blood, soul and divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

              Is this not so?
              Last edited by foudroyant; 06-12-2014, 09:33 AM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                Incredible.........

                From my previous post.

                The wafer is to be worshiped by Roman Catholics.
                They believe the Eucharist is literally the body, blood, soul and divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ.
                You've already convinced me; no need to keep trying. But do let me know if you would ever like more assistance in understanding Catholic sacramental theology. I'll be glad to help in whatever way I can.
                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                Comment


                • No need.
                  You already wrote that I mischaracterized them which turned out to be a total flop.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                    No need.
                    You already wrote that I mischaracterized them which turned out to be a total flop.
                    Have you found any Catholic theologians who agree with you that they worship a wafer god?
                    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                    Comment


                    • See Posts #128-130.
                      Last edited by foudroyant; 06-12-2014, 10:23 AM.

                      Comment


                      • robrecht, fouroyant is right, but only so long as he accepts that traditional Christianity requires that we believe in and worship a human God-- a fetus God, a crying baby God, a soiling-his-diapers God, a pimply teenaged God, and, ultimately, a corpse God. It's not so much inaccurate as it is needlessly offensive. If he can accept offensive characterizations of the Incarnate Christ as accurate, then I think we can accept his offensive characterization of the Eucharist.
                        Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                          See Posts #128-130.
                          Oh, I see you added this question while I was responding to your post. The Catholic church teaches that by the power and presence of the Holy Spirit, Christ himself is also present under the consecrated species of bread and wine, a living and glorious presence, in a true, real, and substantial manner, his body and his blood, with his soul and his divinity. The real presence is that of the risen Christ, made known in the breaking of the bread, in the symbolic and sacred rite that he himself gave us, indeed it is the personal presence of the whole Trinity, who are the object of worship and thanksgiving in the Eucharistic liturgy. There is no worship of a wafer god, 'though there is a most reverential and prayerful celebration of this symbolic and sacred rite. A good work of Catholic sacramental theology, such as the one I have suggested by Edward Schillebeeckx, can explain this better than me. Never once in my 25 years of Catholic education did I ever hear of anyone teaching anything remotely similar to the worship of a wafer god. Have you found any Catholic theologians who agree with you that they worship a wafer god?
                          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                            robrecht, fouroyant is right, but only so long as he accepts that traditional Christianity requires that we believe in and worship a human God-- a fetus God, a crying baby God, a soiling-his-diapers God, a pimply teenaged God, and, ultimately, a corpse God. It's not so much inaccurate as it is needlessly offensive. If he can accept offensive characterizations of the Incarnate Christ as accurate, then I think we can accept his offensive characterization of the Eucharist.
                            I do not accept offensive and ignorant characterizations that proudly exclaim that there is no value in understanding first before attempting to offer critical reflection. We do not worship a wafer god, but the living God who is really present to us in our communal celebration of faith in a sacred and symbolic rite given to us by Christ himself.
                            Last edited by robrecht; 06-12-2014, 12:12 PM.
                            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                            Comment


                            • What's next, will he tell us that we should celebrate the Eucharist as nudists?

                              http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...m-and-Clothing

                              Or would that be a polemical misrepresentation of Foudroyant's sacramental theology? If he has a sacramental theology? Is it of any importance whatsoever that we represent his theological convictions correctly or should we just make up the most demeaning characterization we can think of, regardless of whether or not it corresponds to his actual beliefs?

                              The polemical arguments about what can be seen as a relatively minor difference in attempting to explain a mystery that should be beyond merely rational explanation but rather an expression of faith has turned what Paul saw as a celebration of unity into a theological fighting ground. Regardless of what exactly Christ intended by his words as explained in various philosophical or theological systematic terminology, that was surely not intended.

                              Rather than polemics, we should dialogue to make sure we understand each others ideas and faith before offering critical reflection, if indeed critical reflection in even welcome once an environment of mutual trust and understanding has been achieved.
                              Last edited by robrecht; 06-12-2014, 01:56 PM.
                              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                                Oh, I see you added this question while I was responding to your post. The Catholic church teaches that by the power and presence of the Holy Spirit, Christ himself is also present under the consecrated species of bread and wine, a living and glorious presence, in a true, real, and substantial manner, his body and his blood, with his soul and his divinity. The real presence is that of the risen Christ, made known in the breaking of the bread, in the symbolic and sacred rite that he himself gave us, indeed it is the personal presence of the whole Trinity, who are the object of worship and thanksgiving in the Eucharistic liturgy. There is no worship of a wafer god, 'though there is a most reverential and prayerful celebration of this symbolic and sacred rite. A good work of Catholic sacramental theology, such as the one I have suggested by Edward Schillebeeckx, can explain this better than me. Never once in my 25 years of Catholic education did I ever hear of anyone teaching anything remotely similar to the worship of a wafer god. Have you found any Catholic theologians who agree with you that they worship a wafer god?
                                They believe it is literally the body, blood, soul and divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ and it is to be offered worship (latria).

                                That is worshiping a wafer god. Now if they refuse to see it that way that is their choice but the facts speak for themselves.

                                Comment

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