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Changing the Lord's Prayer

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
    That does not mean those translations are correct. How translations render a passage, is not the standard for translation. The standard ought to be a combination of:

    1. The most accurate possible text for translation available.
    2. The most accurate possible exegesis of the text.
    3. The most accurate rendering possible into the receptor language, for the purposes of that particular work of translation.

    Differences of judgement arising from uncertainties in the translated text, or from doubts as to how many strophes of verse a Greek line represents (as in St. Luke 2.14) are often inescapable. Those disagreements are normal, and are not the problem. The problem is with translations that water down the translated text in order to be readily comprehensible to the readership intended.

    This has nothing to do with flat-footed literalism, and everything to do with making the entire meaning of the author in his own language, that of the text, as clear and complete and full in translation as in the author’s own words. If it is a duty to be faithful to the mind and meaning and ideas of an author outside the Bible, surely this duty is far greater when the words translated are God-breathed words, some of them the words of Christ Himself ? If Christ teaches His disciples to pray in a certain way, how can any other man, one whose work is not God-breathed, take it on himself to alter words belonging both to the Bible & to Christ ?
    First off, though, an error on my part: I incorrectly ascribed this to a textual variation. There is a textual variation in this passage, but the translation question here occurs within one one of the variations. The variant is "...on Earth peace, good will to men" compared to "...on Earth peace to men of good will." The actual question here is, if we are using the latter textual variant, whether it should be translated as "men (or people) of good will" or as "men (or people) beloved by God".

    However, in your discussion here regarding translations, you don't seem to actually offer an explanation as to why the "new" translation is actually wrong. A bit of research indicates that the literal translation is "men/people of good will", which is what it was translated as for a while. However, it seems that most translations switched to the modern "men/people beloved by God" due to the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls indicating that was the more accurate meaning of the phrase.

    I'm far from an expert on Greek/Hebrew but it seems extremely defensible as better expressing the meaning of the original phrase. I read that Benedict XVI actually advocated the new wording in his book on the infancy narratives, but I don't have a copy to verify.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
      There is a textual variation in this passage, but the translation question here occurs within one one of the variations. The variant is "...on Earth peace, good will to men" compared to "...on Earth peace to men of good will." The actual question here is, if we are using the latter textual variant, whether it should be translated as "men (or people) of good will" or as "men (or people) beloved by God".
      But I'm not sure how this applies to the translation of the Lord's prayer, there is no textual variant in Mt. 6:13.

      Blessings,
      Lee
      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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      • #78
        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
        But I'm not sure how this applies to the translation of the Lord's prayer, there is no textual variant in Mt. 6:13.
        We weren't talking about the Lord's Prayer; we were talking about the Gloria (Luke 2:14).

        Also, you're incorrect; there is a textual variant in Matthew 6:13, which is whether "For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen" occurs at the end of it or not. This variation is noted in the various translations such as the NIV, NASB, and NRSV.
        Last edited by Terraceth; 07-20-2019, 02:12 AM.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
          Also, you're incorrect; there is a textual variant in Matthew 6:13, which is whether "For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen" occurs at the end of it or not. This variation is noted in the various translations such as the NIV, NASB, and NRSV.
          But that's a different verse, there is no variant in Matthew 6 verse 13...

          Blessings,
          Lee
          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            But that's a different verse, there is no variant in Matthew 6 verse 13...

            Blessings,
            Lee
            No, not a separate verse; it's a variant within Matthew 6:13. Of the Bibles that either include it or mention it in a footnote, it (or its footnote) is placed within Matthew 6:13. Observe:
            https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...3&version=NASB
            https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...13&version=KJV
            https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...13&version=NIV
            https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...3&version=NRSV
            https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...13&version=ESV

            I know that the start/end of verses was decided somewhat arbitrarily by those who originally set the numbering centuries ago, but the fact remains that under the standard verse numbering, the variant occurs in Matthew 6:13.

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            • #81
              Alrighty, my mistake, I was assuming "yours is the kingdom..." was a different verse...
              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

              Comment

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