Announcement

Collapse

Ecclesiology 201 Guidelines

Discussion on matters of general mainstream Christian churches. What are the differences between Catholics and protestants? How has the charismatic movement affected the church? Are Southern baptists different from fundamentalist baptists? It is also for discussions about the nature of the church.

This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and theists. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions. Additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Changing the Lord's Prayer

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Changing the Lord's Prayer

    Now that the pope has changed the Lord's Prayer, John Piper weighs in. The change in question is changing "lead us not into temptation" to "do not let us fall into temptation" (in Mt. 6:13).

    Source: John Piper

    My point here is not whether God “leads us into temptation.” My point is: We should learn whether he does or not from Scripture, not from our prior notions of what good fathers do.

    Source

    © Copyright Original Source



    Piper then goes on to point out that the Spirit led Jesus himself into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil (Mt. 4:1).

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  • #2
    Who dares change the words of Christ?

    No man. Regardless of how highly he thinks of himself, the pope does not have the authority to change anything that Christ has said!


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

    Comment


    • #3
      I believe no change has occurred in English. This was an adjustment to the Italian liturgical translation of the prayer. Many do expect a similar change to occur in English, but it hasn't happened yet.

      Originally posted by mossrose View Post
      Who dares change the words of Christ?

      No man. Regardless of how highly he thinks of himself, the pope does not have the authority to change anything that Christ has said!
      It's a change of translation; it's no more "changing" what Christ said than one Bible translation using a different phrasing than a previous one is "changing" the words of Christ.

      Now if someone wants to argue it's not a good translation, that could be a valid position. But it's silly to equate a change in translation to "changing" the words of Christ when every translation is inherently doing that.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
        Now if someone wants to argue it's not a good translation, that could be a valid position.
        Indeed, John Piper is arguing that the change is incorrect, and for the wrong reason.

        But it's silly to equate a change in translation to "changing" the words of Christ when every translation is inherently doing that.
        Well, this is a substantial change, which changes the meaning of the phrase. So I could see why mossrose is saying Christ's words have been changed.

        Blessings,
        Lee
        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

        Comment


        • #5
          I still think that John 17 is "the Lord's Prayer", and the one that we call "the Lord's Prayer" is more aptly named "the model prayer".
          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

          Comment


          • #6
            In his Kingdom New Testament, N.T. Wright renders it, "Don't bring us into the great trial..."

            Keener's notes in the IVP Bible Background Commentary say this:

            "Parallels with ancient Jewish prayers, and possibly the Aramaic wording behind this verse, suggest that the first line means: 'Let us not sin when we are tested'—rather than 'Let us not be tested' (cf. 4:1; 26:41 in context; cf. Ps 141:3–4). Some scholars have suggested an allusion to the final time of suffering here, which was expected to precede the coming kingdom. Because Jewish prayers were commonly used in liturgical contexts that ended with a statement of praise, later texts’ addition of the benediction ('Thine is the kingdom … ') to the original text of Matthew is not surprising."
            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

            Beige Nationalist.

            "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by mossrose View Post
              Who dares change the words of Christ?

              No man. Regardless of how highly he thinks of himself, the pope does not have the authority to change anything that Christ has said!
              Well then he needs to be quoting Christ in Aramaic, right?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                Well then he needs to be quoting Christ in Aramaic, right?
                Come on, you know that Jesus spoke perfect English with a British accent -- I've heard the Dead Sea Cassette Tapes that were discovered in the caves.
                "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  Come on, you know that Jesus spoke perfect English with a British accent -- I've heard the Dead Sea Cassette Tapes that were discovered in the caves.
                  I saw The Passion of the Christ and he spoke Aramaic!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    I still think that John 17 is "the Lord's Prayer", and the one that we call "the Lord's Prayer" is more aptly named "the model prayer".
                    I think this is mostly an English issue; AFAIR the traditional liturgical languages tend to refer to it as the "Our Father".

                    In the English Orthodox tradition, the argument is over the translation of the next line; is it "but deliver us from evil" or "but deliver us from the evil one"?
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      I think this is mostly an English issue; AFAIR the traditional liturgical languages tend to refer to it as the "Our Father".
                      That's an interesting point. I was in a hospital room with a friend of a Church member, and that person's mother asked me, as Pastor, to "lead us in 'Our Father'". I honestly didn't know what they were talking about, and she said, "You know, the Lord's Prayer". OH, YES!!!!!

                      In the English Orthodox tradition, the argument is over the translation of the next line; is it "but deliver us from evil" or "but deliver us from the evil one"?
                      I'm familiar with that argument.
                      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        I saw The Passion of the Christ and he spoke Aramaic!
                        Yeah, that was all Mel Gibson's fault, and his "Old Catholic" obsession.
                        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Then I guess I should have said that anybody can change whatever they want to and just call it a new translation and it's all good.

                          Have it your own way, guys.


                          Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                            Then I guess I should have said that anybody can change whatever they want to and just call it a new translation and it's all good.

                            Have it your own way, guys.
                            I don't really see a problem in what the pope changed. The meaning is the same. It is obvious that God doesn't lead us into temptation. He is not the source of temptation, nor does he want us to fall into it, or give into it. So the meaning of the verse is clearly not to let temptation gain control over us, to give us the strength to resist it.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              Now that the pope has changed the Lord's Prayer, John Piper weighs in. The change in question is changing "lead us not into temptation" to "do not let us fall into temptation" (in Mt. 6:13).

                              Source: John Piper

                              My point here is not whether God “leads us into temptation.” My point is: We should learn whether he does or not from Scripture, not from our prior notions of what good fathers do.

                              Source

                              © Copyright Original Source



                              Piper then goes on to point out that the Spirit led Jesus himself into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil (Mt. 4:1).

                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              I remember seeing an on-line headline like 'Pope Makes Big Change to Lord's Prayer.' Before I read the article I was thinking it was something like he changed "Our Father" to "Our Parent."

                              Then I read the article and reflected on how the secular media doesn't understand enough about Christian beliefs to know the difference between a tweak and a big change.

                              I then went back to sleep.
                              "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                              "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                              Comment

                              widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                              Working...
                              X