Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

[foudroyant]

Here's my quote from Post 36:
"We know though in what sense prayer and worship are being used depending on the situation. The lexicons clearly make this distinction."

Then you cite passages where "pray" is used in a different sense. There was no need of you to do something in which I already addressed.

This is also why I cited Thayer in Post 40. Need I cite others lexicons that verify my point?

[RBerman]

Isn't this a problem of practice rather than principle? Lets say a hypothetical Catholic crosses the line and starts to consider the graces of Mary's prayers as originating in her, or places her as the fourth person of The Trinity, or ignores the sacraments because she's considered superior, then something's clearly broken. Since all those examples lie outside of approved Marian devotion it can't rightfully be said to be part of it. We both agree that abnormal Marian devotion is abnormal. Praying to Mary in a state of emergency I wouldn't say counts. Idolatry of Mary is possible, but I think you need to be more specific about what form would be idolatry.

If your instinct, in times of prayer, is first and foremost to pray to Mary, then I do not know on what grounds you could claim that you have not put Mary before God.

I guess the real suspicion on your part is on her honorific titles, and whether God bestowed certain graces on her, such as her assumption into Heaven like Enosh, Moses and Elijah, her being born free of sin as a new Eve, her perpetual virginity, her being crowned Queen of Heaven and the greatest Saint, Mirror of Justice, Gate of Heaven... You said something to the effect that it smelled like Athena worship to you in another thread. However why the Church agreed that she had these titles ia a discussion of authority and our disagreement there is ultimately sola scriptura vs tradition. I take it you'd agree on that point?

Yes. Really, pretty much every difference between Protestantism and Roman Catholicism is going to boil down to a difference of authority eventually.

If Mary is crowned Queen of Heaven by her Son and she administers the angels and enjoys a position of derived glory super omnes spesiosa. Then if I didn't honor her authority, position, beauty, etc., I would be diminishing a work of grace by Christ and thereby diminishing Him by extension. I owe her at-least as much admiration as I do my own country. More so because in Catholic theology Christ gave her as a gift to the Church. Its not a zero sum game. Mary is all about Christ, and many of the prayers involve her intercession with Him. You'd need to show that my devotion to Mary makes me love Christ less. I pray to Him more than I would without that devotion; I think about the deeds of his life, death and resurrection because that's part of Mary devotion; he's more kingly and sovereign to me, he's not best-buddy-Jesus; etc. Now the basic premises you might disagree with (Mary crowned Queen of Heaven and given as a gift to the Church). However I only need to defend how this works within Catholicism. Whether its true is ultimately a question of sources to build the faith on.

Certainly if Jesus told you to do X, you'd better do X.

[RBerman]

Here's my quote from Post 36:
"We know though in what sense prayer and worship are being used depending on the situation. The lexicons clearly make this distinction."

Then you cite passages where "pray" is used in a different sense. There was no need of you to do something in which I already addressed.

This is also why I cited Thayer in Post 40. Need I cite others lexicons that verify my point?

Essentially you're arguing for a restricted definition of "pray" so that it's always prayer to God, and then railing against someone who, under a different definition, uses the word in a way that violates your demands. This is not an issue that a modern lexicon is going to solve one way or the other. Post #36 betrays no awareness that "pray" is used in contexts other than to God. A link to a lexicon is not an argument one way or the other. In order for discussion to advance, you would have to first respond to the question of whether you realize that "pray" can be used in a context other than prayer to God. Can you clear that up for me?

[foudroyant]

I am only citing what they affirm. If I restrict it it is because that is how it is defined.
Several lexicons all affirm this but you insist they won't be able to solve. Thanks form your authoritative pronouncement.

[Leonhard]

If your instinct, in times of prayer, is first and foremost to pray to Mary, then I do not know on what grounds you could claim that you have not put Mary before God.

I'll giving an explanation, though since you don't give an argument I hope you agree that the criteria for success would just be your subjective evaluation.

If Mary is given as intercessor for us then basically whatever prayer I give her she gives to her Son, only with her wisdom and position of authority.

Tradition tells me I can trust this confidently.

However its more complicated because there are many kinds of prayers. The mass is a prayer, all God all the time with a small interrim asking for the saints prayers (lasting under 20s usually). Confession, Christ centric again. Worshipping the blessed sacrament hours of silence looking at a consecrated host contemplating Christ's offering.

I pray to Mary (and other saints depending on circumstances) before many of those things, usually for her petitions to make me ready for it. To be more like her Son, to love Christ more.

So in the end if all I do is centered around Christ, then in what way can you say that I'm putting something else ahead of Christ?

Short of arguing that what I'm doing are heretical mistakes based on following false authorities of course. However we both agree that this would be a question of authority.

[RBerman]

I am only citing what they affirm. If I restrict it it is because that is how it is defined.

I have shown that this is not the case, as evidenced by hundreds of times in the Bible that "prayer" is not to God.

Several lexicons all affirm this but you insist they won't be able to solve. Thanks form your authoritative pronouncement.

My point is that you are misusing lexicons in approaching this question, because the word "pray" in the passages I cited is not its own separate word that you'll find in a lexicon. It's a specific way of modifying another Hebrew word grammatically to make it into a prayer/request.

[foudroyant]

I have shown that this is not the case, as evidenced by hundreds of times in the Bible that "prayer" is not to God.



My point is that you are misusing lexicons in approaching this question, because the word "pray" in the passages I cited is not its own separate word that you'll find in a lexicon. It's a specific way of modifying another Hebrew word grammatically to make it into a prayer/request.

The same word is not always used in the same exact way. There are variations.
You are the one who misunderstands that the lexicons make this distinction.

In fact, there are times when prayer to God is being offered and it simply reads that the person "said" or "inquired". How someone says or inquires something to another person would not be the exact same way as saying something or inquiring something to God.

Yeah the lexicons are all wrong about this and you are right.


Credentials please..........................

[Leonhard]

The same word is not always used in the same exact way. There are variations.
You are the one who misunderstands that the lexicons make this distinction.

So how aren't you contradicting what you've said before. Prayer isn't always

Yeah they are all wrong about this and you are right.

Credentials please..........................

Strawman, RBerman wasn't arguing from
authority but from specific examples.

[foudroyant]

1. What contradiction?

2. Examples which the lexicons have already taken into account.
If 500,000 people said "I pray you" to a person and they said it silently along with the request and the other person knew all of those requests that is not the exact same thing as praying to God.

If you know anyone besides God who is capable of knowing what those 500,000 silently requested please tell me.

[Leonhard]

1. What contradiction?

Admitting that prayer can be taken to mean different things vs holding that it applies exclusively to worship of God.

If 500,000 people said "I pray you" to a person and they said it silently along with the request and the other person knew all of those requests that is not the exact same thing as praying to God.

Why is the silence important? And why is this example relevant, I have no reason to think that God has given you the grace of hearing all those prayers.

The saints in Heaven are not participating in time so they have an eternity to consider the individual prayers if need be. Again individual angels will carry up individual prayers, or God will tell them.

Why would it take more than for them to ask?

If you know anyone besides God who is capable of knowing what those 500,000 silently requested please tell me.

Tradition tells us that Mary knows our prayers, probably by being informed of them by God or the angels carrying the prayers.

Some angel, likely your guardian angel, knows your thoughts. If you think a prayer (which I assume is what you mean by a silent prayer) then he'll know and that's all that is necessary.

Why would anymore be required?

[foudroyant]

Admitting that prayer can be taken to mean different things vs holding that it applies exclusively to worship of God.



Why is the silence important? And why is this example relevant, I have no reason to think that God has given you the grace of hearing all those prayers.

The saints in Heaven are not participating in time so they have an eternity to consider the individual prayers if need be. Again individual angels will carry up individual prayers, or God will tell them.

Why would it take more than for them to ask?



Tradition tells us that Mary knows our prayers, probably by being informed of them by God or the angels carrying the prayers.

Some angel, likely your guardian angel, knows your thoughts. If you think a prayer (which I assume is what you mean by a silent prayer) then he'll know and that's all that is necessary.

Why would anymore be required?

1. It is not a contradiction because it is supported by several excellent authorities.
2. Silence is important because it proves my point in number 1 as well. The word is not used in the exact same sense.
3. If Mary or anyone else besides God knows all the hearts behind the prayers are offered that would make her and them omniscient (God) - because kardiognwsta is properly defined as such.

[Leonhard]

You didn't answer any of my questions, you just reiterated the same points. This conversation is rapidly ceasing to have any purpose.

1. It is not a contradiction because it is supported by several excellent authorities.
2. Silence is important because it proves my point in number 1 as well. The word is not used in the exact same sense.
3. If Mary or anyone else besides God knows all the hearts behind the prayers are offered that would make her and them omniscient (God) - because kardiognwsta is properly defined as such.

I was talking about silent prayers. Why is it important for the prayers to be silent?

Do you consider spoken prayers to be a problem as well?

And knowing the prayers of people is equivalent with knowing the content of their hearts?

I'll ignore whether you're right about that heart-knower is God stuff.

[foudroyant]

You didn't answer any of my questions, you just reiterated the same points. This conversation is rapidly ceasing to have any purpose.



I was talking about silent prayers. Why is it important for the prayers to be silent?

Do you consider spoken prayers to be a problem as well?

And knowing the prayers of people is equivalent with knowing the content of their hearts?

I'll ignore whether you're right about that heart-knower is God stuff.

The conversation is rapidly ceasing because you refuse to see how words are PROPERLY defined - why would you "ignore" about God being the heart-knower?
Silent prayers prove that when the word "prayed" is used in reference to people addressing other people it is not in the same sense as when it is used of people addressing God. Notice further that when it is used of people addressing other people it is not multiple people with various needs all addressing the person at the same time and having that person fully understand every thing that was being said.

Fully knowing the prayers of people is equivalent to fully knowing the contents of their hearts.

[Leonhard]

Fully knowing the prayers of people is equivalent to fully knowing the contents of their hearts.

I guess you could always play on the word 'fully'. Maria doesn't need exhaustive knowledge, in principle she just needs your prayer intentions. Since you're quite capable of delivering those verbally, then even by your own standards Maria doesn't need knowledge that goes beyond verbal communication.

[Leonhard]

You still ignore my questions, and get mad for not answering every little bit from you.

I guess you could always play on the word 'fully'. Maria doesn't need exhaustive knowledge, in principle she just needs your prayer intentions. Since you're quite capable of delivering those verbally, then even by your own standards Maria doesn't need knowledge that goes beyond verbal communication.