Originally posted by foudroyant
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This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and theists. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions. Additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101.
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Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary
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Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.
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Originally posted by foudroyant View PostA simple yes or no will do.Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.
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Pathetic.
So Mary knows the hearts of all these people. That means she too is the heartknower which means she is omniscient (God).
Welcome to Roman Catholic heresy.Last edited by foudroyant; 04-03-2014, 08:09 AM.
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Originally posted by foudroyant View PostPathetic.
So Mary knows the hearts of all these people. That means she too is the heartknower which means she is omniscient (God).
Welcome to Catholic heresy.Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.
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Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View PostI am grateful Mary is at peace and not having to be troubled by us pestering her constantly.
No one in the NT asked a departed saint to pray for them. One would think Paul would have prayed to Stephen to pray for him.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by foudroyant View PostThe Hebrew word used there doesn't always refer to worship but obeisance. (Genesis 33:3)
And he passed over before them, and bowed himself to the ground seven times, until he came near to his brother. (KJV)
Why couldn't the people be offering obeisance to David while affording worship to God?"As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by foudroyant View PostI cited several sources in the OP that refute what you just wrote."As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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First of all omniscience is all knowledge, if even one iota of truth is lacking its not omniscience. I won't evaluate the claim that only God can know the hearts of men. Even if that was true, it would not imply that knowing hearts would be the same as omniscience, only that the only one to have this kind of knowledge is God. Potentially another being could have been made that only knew the states of the hearts of men, but lacked other sorts of knowledge.
Mary knows the content of the prayers, either by God revealing it to her (I doubt it would take more than her asking), or by Angels (all it takes is one lone Angel knowing enough of your thoughts to know what you've prayed, same for everyone else, it doesn't require one angel who knows all prayers of everyone though even that isn't impossible) carrying the prayers and intentions up to her. Nothing is implied in order for Mary to know the prayers given to her. She doesn't even have to have full knowledge of all the aspects of a persons heart in order to know the prayer, silent or spoken.
Even if what you said was right it wouldn't even condemn prayer to Mary, only silent forms of prayer.
Its a pretty bad argument foudroyant. You make an argument from silence in the Bible, then you bring up a bunch of examples which aren't relevant and finally even if its successful it doesn't show what you want it to show.
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Originally posted by foudroyant View PostWrong!
I cited several sources in the OP that refute what you just wrote. I'd like to see the Greek qualifications of you and anyone else who disagrees with them.Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.
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Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostIf Israelis offered obeisance to idols how do you think that would sit with God?
Because they are both offered the same thing in that verse. More importantly, bowing to both God and the king is already described before the word is used. Your interpretation, which looks like the same type of terminology fudging you accuse Catholics of in the OP makes for nonsensical writing. "They bowed to David, then they bowed to David."
If they were offering obeisance to idols then they were worshiping idols - not necessarily always the case concerning people.
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Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostNone of your sources do anything of the sort. Omniscience = knowing everything. You don't need to know everything to know people's thoughts. One can be an uber-psychic who can read every mind on the planet but not now exactly how many atoms Neptune is composed of. You don't need "Greek qualifications" to figure this out, just a functional brain.
Here's one more:
The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible: Christ possesses the attributes of God: omniscience (Acts 1:24) (2:94, deity of Christ, A.H. Leitch).
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostFirst of all omniscience is all knowledge, if even one iota of truth is lacking its not omniscience. I won't evaluate the claim that only God can know the hearts of men. Even if that was true, it would not imply that knowing hearts would be the same as omniscience, only that the only one to have this kind of knowledge is God. Potentially another being could have been made that only knew the states of the hearts of men, but lacked other sorts of knowledge.
Mary knows the content of the prayers, either by God revealing it to her (I doubt it would take more than her asking), or by Angels (all it takes is one lone Angel knowing enough of your thoughts to know what you've prayed, same for everyone else, it doesn't require one angel who knows all prayers of everyone though even that isn't impossible) carrying the prayers and intentions up to her. Nothing is implied in order for Mary to know the prayers given to her. She doesn't even have to have full knowledge of all the aspects of a persons heart in order to know the prayer, silent or spoken.
Even if what you said was right it wouldn't even condemn prayer to Mary, only silent forms of prayer.
Its a pretty bad argument foudroyant. You make an argument from silence in the Bible, then you bring up a bunch of examples which aren't relevant and finally even if its successful it doesn't show what you want it to show.
So someone can pray to Mary and deceive her?
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