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Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

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  • #16
    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    She would also have to be aware of the hearts behind the silent words of these prayers.....or can people pray to her and trick her in that they were not sincere?
    Knowing that as well would also be an incremental, not infinite increase in knowledge. She knows more, but still not everything-- and everything that she does know, she knows only through God's power in the first place.
    Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

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    • #17
      A simple yes or no will do.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
        A simple yes or no will do.
        No, it wouldn't do, because then you'd dive right back into your inane equivocation. In any case, I think that my post was sufficient for you to gather that I do not believe that Mary would be fooled.
        Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

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        • #19
          Pathetic.

          So Mary knows the hearts of all these people. That means she too is the heartknower which means she is omniscient (God).

          Welcome to Roman Catholic heresy.
          Last edited by foudroyant; 04-03-2014, 08:09 AM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
            Pathetic.

            So Mary knows the hearts of all these people. That means she too is the heartknower which means she is omniscient (God).

            Welcome to Catholic heresy.
            Knowing hearts does not require complete omniscience. It is, as I have said repeatedly, a finite and not an infinite increase in her ability to know. If there is anyone here who agrees with Foudroyant on this particular point, I'd be very interested to know about it.
            Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
              Knowing hearts does not require complete omniscience.
              Wrong!

              I cited several sources in the OP that refute what you just wrote. I'd like to see the Greek qualifications of you and anyone else who disagrees with them.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
                I am grateful Mary is at peace and not having to be troubled by us pestering her constantly.
                I'm not sure why you think this would be bothersome.
                No one in the NT asked a departed saint to pray for them. One would think Paul would have prayed to Stephen to pray for him.
                One is not sure why the practice would necessarily come up. The NT is not meant to be a comprehensive guide to the Church; it is a collection of documents written for specific purposes, all of which have been deemed to be "God-breathed."
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                  The Hebrew word used there doesn't always refer to worship but obeisance. (Genesis 33:3)

                  And he passed over before them, and bowed himself to the ground seven times, until he came near to his brother. (KJV)
                  If Israelis offered obeisance to idols how do you think that would sit with God?

                  Why couldn't the people be offering obeisance to David while affording worship to God?
                  Because they are both offered the same thing in that verse. More importantly, bowing to both God and the king is already described before the word is used. Your interpretation, which looks like the same type of terminology fudging you accuse Catholics of in the OP makes for nonsensical writing. "They bowed to David, then they bowed to David."
                  "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                  There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                    I cited several sources in the OP that refute what you just wrote.
                    None of your sources do anything of the sort. Omniscience = knowing everything. You don't need to know everything to know people's thoughts. One can be an uber-psychic who can read every mind on the planet but not now exactly how many atoms Neptune is composed of. You don't need "Greek qualifications" to figure this out, just a functional brain.
                    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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                    • #25
                      I am in agreement with Spart, OBP and Leonhard here.
                      A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
                      George Bernard Shaw

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                      • #26
                        First of all omniscience is all knowledge, if even one iota of truth is lacking its not omniscience. I won't evaluate the claim that only God can know the hearts of men. Even if that was true, it would not imply that knowing hearts would be the same as omniscience, only that the only one to have this kind of knowledge is God. Potentially another being could have been made that only knew the states of the hearts of men, but lacked other sorts of knowledge.

                        Mary knows the content of the prayers, either by God revealing it to her (I doubt it would take more than her asking), or by Angels (all it takes is one lone Angel knowing enough of your thoughts to know what you've prayed, same for everyone else, it doesn't require one angel who knows all prayers of everyone though even that isn't impossible) carrying the prayers and intentions up to her. Nothing is implied in order for Mary to know the prayers given to her. She doesn't even have to have full knowledge of all the aspects of a persons heart in order to know the prayer, silent or spoken.

                        Even if what you said was right it wouldn't even condemn prayer to Mary, only silent forms of prayer.

                        Its a pretty bad argument foudroyant. You make an argument from silence in the Bible, then you bring up a bunch of examples which aren't relevant and finally even if its successful it doesn't show what you want it to show.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                          Wrong!

                          I cited several sources in the OP that refute what you just wrote. I'd like to see the Greek qualifications of you and anyone else who disagrees with them.
                          you can't quote the entirety of my post because it's obvious even to you that your argument can be refuted with only a few words.
                          Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                            If Israelis offered obeisance to idols how do you think that would sit with God?



                            Because they are both offered the same thing in that verse. More importantly, bowing to both God and the king is already described before the word is used. Your interpretation, which looks like the same type of terminology fudging you accuse Catholics of in the OP makes for nonsensical writing. "They bowed to David, then they bowed to David."

                            If they were offering obeisance to idols then they were worshiping idols - not necessarily always the case concerning people.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                              None of your sources do anything of the sort. Omniscience = knowing everything. You don't need to know everything to know people's thoughts. One can be an uber-psychic who can read every mind on the planet but not now exactly how many atoms Neptune is composed of. You don't need "Greek qualifications" to figure this out, just a functional brain.
                              Then you don't know how to read properly.

                              Here's one more:
                              The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible: Christ possesses the attributes of God: omniscience (Acts 1:24) (2:94, deity of Christ, A.H. Leitch).

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                                First of all omniscience is all knowledge, if even one iota of truth is lacking its not omniscience. I won't evaluate the claim that only God can know the hearts of men. Even if that was true, it would not imply that knowing hearts would be the same as omniscience, only that the only one to have this kind of knowledge is God. Potentially another being could have been made that only knew the states of the hearts of men, but lacked other sorts of knowledge.

                                Mary knows the content of the prayers, either by God revealing it to her (I doubt it would take more than her asking), or by Angels (all it takes is one lone Angel knowing enough of your thoughts to know what you've prayed, same for everyone else, it doesn't require one angel who knows all prayers of everyone though even that isn't impossible) carrying the prayers and intentions up to her. Nothing is implied in order for Mary to know the prayers given to her. She doesn't even have to have full knowledge of all the aspects of a persons heart in order to know the prayer, silent or spoken.

                                Even if what you said was right it wouldn't even condemn prayer to Mary, only silent forms of prayer.

                                Its a pretty bad argument foudroyant. You make an argument from silence in the Bible, then you bring up a bunch of examples which aren't relevant and finally even if its successful it doesn't show what you want it to show.
                                Yeah a bad argument that is backed up by several authorities.
                                So someone can pray to Mary and deceive her?

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