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Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

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  • #76
    OK. I tried doing a search on the computer and couldn't find anything.

    I know the Mormons believe it refers to omniscience.

    Comment

    • #77
      http://www.padrepio.catholicwebservi.../knowledge.htm

      There are a few examples (which you may or may not believe to be pious fictions) of God granting special knowledge to saints here on Earth, including knowledge of the hearts of people coming to them for the Sacrament of Confession.
      Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

      Comment

      • #78
        I couldn't access the web page.
        God can grant prophets special ability to know some things that others wouldn't know but not the totality.

        Comment

        • #79
          Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
          I couldn't access the web page.
          God can grant prophets special ability to know some things that others wouldn't know but not the totality.
          So you can know enough to know whether a person is lying to you, or more or less their true intentions, without knowing the complete totality of a person's heart? If so, then you've handed me victory, whether you like it or not.
          Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

          Comment

          • #80
            If some say that prophets were able to read the hearts of people (cf. 1 Kings 14:5; 2 Kings 6:12; 8:11 Acts 5:3-5) we must remember that although they had more insight than others they were never said to be able to know the totality of the hearts of all people (2 Kings 4:27). Only God has this knowledge (omniscience).

            So don't give yourself any high fives.

            Comment

            • #81
              Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
              If some say that prophets were able to read the hearts of people (cf. 1 Kings 14:5; 2 Kings 6:12; 8:11 Acts 5:3-5) we must remember that although they had more insight than others they were never said to be able to know the totality of the hearts of all people (2 Kings 4:27). Only God has this knowledge (omniscience).

              So don't give yourself any high fives.
              Would knowing the prayers of people require much - if any - more knowledge than the prophets had in those circumstances?
              Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

              Comment

              • #82
                Yes, it would require omniscience because even the prophets did not know EVERTHING.

                Comment

                • #83
                  Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                  Yes, it would require omniscience because even the prophets did not know EVERTHING.
                  No one is arguing that the saints know everything. I am arguing that they know more-- far more-- than any human being could without God's assistance (as we see with the prophets), but not that they know everything.
                  Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                  Comment

                  • #84
                    They don't know enough to pray to them.

                    Comment

                    • #85
                      Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                      If some say that prophets were able to read the hearts of people (cf. 1 Kings 14:5; 2 Kings 6:12; 8:11 Acts 5:3-5) we must remember that although they had more insight than others they were never said to be able to know the totality of the hearts of all people (2 Kings 4:27). Only God has this knowledge (omniscience).

                      So don't give yourself any high fives.
                      Is there an infinite number of people alive at any one time? Is God's Omniscience limited to knowing only the prayerful intentions of those who pray?
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.
                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                      • #86
                        1. No
                        2. No

                        Comment

                        • #87
                          Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                          1. No
                          2. No
                          So those who believe that Mary can know the prayerful intentions of others do not necessarily attribute Omniscience to her, correct?
                          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.
                          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                          • #88
                            No, because if you know the totality of the prayerful intentions of other this means you are omniscient.

                            See the OP for the definition of kardiognwsta.

                            Comment

                            • #89
                              Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                              They don't know enough to pray to them.
                              How do you know what saints and angels do and do not know? Are you Omniscient perhaps?
                              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.
                              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                              Comment

                              • #90
                                I'm not omniscient but to know the totality of all the hearts of all people means the same thing as being omniscient. Thus no else knows but God.

                                Around and around we go.

                                Comment

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