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Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

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  • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    Interesting to see that you are better at prayer than Paul.
    "For WE (Paul includes himself) do not know how to pray as we should" (Romans 8:26, NASB, emphasis mine)

    First the denial of how words are defined and now the claim to be better at prayer than Paul.

    Your arrogance stubbornly marches on.
    I am satisfied that Paul knew how to pray for as he ought on many occasions, and he admits in this piece that there were occasions when he didn't. There is no claim in this passage that Paul never knew how to pray.

    I haven't denied how words are properly defined at any point - just denied that you are qualified to re-define them as you see fit to bolster your allegations of impropriety against others.

    And your ad hom attacks are useless - all they prove is that you don't have what it takes to respond to the issues at hand.
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...rd-Jesus/page5
      Post #49

      I believe in the Trinity. I reject Modalism and Oneness Pentecostalism (David K. Bernard).

      A book I would recommend that I read years ago is "A Definitive Look at Oneness Theology: Defending the Tri-Unity of God" by Edward L. Dalcour

      http://www.amazon.com/Definitive-Loo.../dp/0761829938
      Last edited by foudroyant; 08-18-2014, 09:34 AM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        I am satisfied that Paul knew how to pray for as he ought on many occasions, and he admits in this piece that there were occasions when he didn't. There is no claim in this passage that Paul never knew how to pray.
        None of us know how to properly prayer except through the intercession of the Holy Spirit.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
          None of us know how to properly prayer except through the intercession of the Holy Spirit.
          "we do not know what we should pray for"

          suddenly becomes

          "we do not know how to pray"

          Believers Bible Commentary
          8:26 Just as we are sustained by this glorious hope, so the Spirit sustains us in our weaknesses. We are often perplexed in our prayer life. We do not know how to pray as we should. We pray selfishly, ignorantly, narrowly. But once again the Spirit comes alongside to assist us in our weakness, interceding for us with groanings which cannot find expression. In this verse it is the Spirit who groans and not we who groan, though that is also true.
          There is mystery here. We are peering into the unseen, spiritual realm where a great Person and great forces are at work on our behalf. And although we cannot understand it all, we can take infinite encouragement from the fact that a groan may sometimes be the most spiritual prayer.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • We do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us (Romans 8:26, NASB)


            If you are not praying "in the Spirit" then it is not acceptable to God (cf. Jude 1:20). We are to pray at all times in the Spirit (Ephesians 6:18).
            Last edited by foudroyant; 08-18-2014, 09:43 AM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
              We do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us (Romans 8:26, NASB)


              If you are not praying "in the Spirit" then it is not acceptable to God (cf. Jude 1:20). We are to pray at all times in the Spirit (Ephesians 6:18).
              Alternatively, we can pray (worship) in Spirit and in Truth (to the Father) as Jesus advised the Samaritan woman...

              Of interest, if you are attentive to scripture, you would note that in the Gospels, not once did Jesus declare himself, directly or explicitly, as the Messiah, to any Jew (including his disciples). However, he did declare himself explicitly to the Samaritan woman....

              In my RCC education, from infancy, I was taught that prayer is not a jumble of words but a way of life. At times of grievious desperation I have used words to appeal to God (the Father) to inspire me (receive the Holy Spirit) through the example of his Son to give me strength. i've in many ways have lived through the ordeals of Job. Despite, a lot of suffering, anguish and tears, so far so good...my prayers have been answered...
              Last edited by apostoli; 08-18-2014, 10:07 AM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by apostoli View Post
                Alternatively, we can pray (worship) in Spirit and in Truth (to the Father) as Jesus advised the Samaritan woman....
                Is prayer worship?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                  No, Psalm 139 has plenty of doctrinal points.
                  Maccabees isn't Scripture.
                  You are, once again, missing or avoiding the point. Have you nothing to say about the Masoretic vocalization of this psalm, nothing to say about the the development of Jewish and Christian belief and doctrine, nothing to say about the earliest forms of Christian worship, other than to say that it was composed by 'moronic idiots'?
                  βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                  ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                  Comment


                  • If it disagrees with the Bible then to the flames they go.

                    Comment


                    • In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. (Romans 8:26-27, NASB)

                      James Denney: This intercession, with which our heart goes, though it is deeper than words, the Heart Searcher understands. (The Expositor's Greek Testament)
                      http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=44&ch=8

                      Beet: That these groanings are unspeakable, does not lessen their efficacy. For they appeal to one who searches the hearts (Revelation 2:23; Jeremiah 17:10; 1 Samuel 16:7) and thus hears this silent intercession.
                      http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=44&ch=8

                      Kretzmann: All such inarticulate sighs in the hearts of the Christians, although they are not and cannot be clothed in the words of human speech, are nevertheless fully intelligible to God. He that searches, investigates, the hearts is fully conscious of, perfectly acquainted with, the mind of the Spirit. The omniscient God knows what the Spirit has in mind in those groanings whose content cannot be expressed in the words of human language.
                      http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=44&ch=8

                      Mahan: ‘He that searcheth the heart’ is God. No man knows the heart of another, nor does any man fully know his own heart (Luke 16:15). The Lord knows our motives, our thoughts, and our intentions (John 21:17). He knows the mind or the purpose and providence of the Spirit of God, and he makes intercession for the believers according to and in perfect harmony with the will of God for them.
                      http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=44&ch=8

                      Pett: The reference to ‘He Who searches the hearts’ confirms that the Spirit is praying as we pray. Whatever our outward words our Father knows all that is in our hearts (and all our needs, as Jesus made clear in Matthew 6), searching our hearts as we pray. And as the Spirit prays through us the Father ‘knows His mind’, that is knows precisely what He is requesting, because He makes his intercession ‘according to God’ (‘the will of’ is not in the Greek, but put in by translators in order to make the sense clear). We need therefore never be afraid that any failure of ours in understanding will hinder our prayers to God at times of need.
                      http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=44&ch=8

                      More can be provided but the point is clear. It takes the Heart-Knower (The Omniscient God) to fully know the prayers of all people whom the Holy Spirit is interceding for. Mary can't do it - nor can anyone else.
                      Last edited by foudroyant; 08-18-2014, 10:17 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                        Is prayer worship?
                        Depends on whether one is asking for something or giving a thanksgiving or just having a chat. In my world, prayer begins the moment you wake up to the moment you go to sleep. In my perspective, Adam and Eve (mankind) were created in the image of God. So, something as simple as planting a seed in a pot is a prayer, for we attempt to imitate the Father, Son and Spirit in our limited creative experience...

                        Imu, the ROC & EOC describe life as experiential... Jesus (via A.John) uses the word ginōskō, which equates to the intimate relationship a husband and wife might have. And it is this ginōskō (according to Jesus in his prayer to his Father) that he pleads all of his followers will experience (nb: in terms of NT metaphor, the followers of Christ are his bride, which is the avenue through which we become adopted into the Father's family - have a think on Rom 8:9-15; 1 Cor 15:28).

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                          In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. (Romans 8:26-27, NASB)

                          James Denney: This intercession, with which our heart goes, though it is deeper than words, the Heart Searcher understands. (The Expositor's Greek Testament)
                          http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=44&ch=8

                          Beet: That these groanings are unspeakable, does not lessen their efficacy. For they appeal to one who searches the hearts (Revelation 2:23; Jeremiah 17:10; 1 Samuel 16:7) and thus hears this silent intercession.
                          http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=44&ch=8

                          Kretzmann: All such inarticulate sighs in the hearts of the Christians, although they are not and cannot be clothed in the words of human speech, are nevertheless fully intelligible to God. He that searches, investigates, the hearts is fully conscious of, perfectly acquainted with, the mind of the Spirit. The omniscient God knows what the Spirit has in mind in those groanings whose content cannot be expressed in the words of human language.
                          http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=44&ch=8

                          Mahan: ‘He that searcheth the heart’ is God. No man knows the heart of another, nor does any man fully know his own heart (Luke 16:15). The Lord knows our motives, our thoughts, and our intentions (John 21:17). He knows the mind or the purpose and providence of the Spirit of God, and he makes intercession for the believers according to and in perfect harmony with the will of God for them.
                          http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=44&ch=8

                          Pett: The reference to ‘He Who searches the hearts’ confirms that the Spirit is praying as we pray. Whatever our outward words our Father knows all that is in our hearts (and all our needs, as Jesus made clear in Matthew 6), searching our hearts as we pray. And as the Spirit prays through us the Father ‘knows His mind’, that is knows precisely what He is requesting, because He makes his intercession ‘according to God’ (‘the will of’ is not in the Greek, but put in by translators in order to make the sense clear). We need therefore never be afraid that any failure of ours in understanding will hinder our prayers to God at times of need.
                          http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=44&ch=8

                          More can be provided but the point is clear. It takes the Heart-Knower (The Omniscient God) to fully know the prayers of all people whom the Holy Spirit is interceding for. Mary can't do it - nor can anyone else.
                          Let's see now - Beet, Denney, Mahan, and Pett restrict the type of prayer to intercession (which befits the topic (the context) of the passage). Kretzmann restricts the prayer to one concerning matters that can't be expressed in words. None of them says that prayer in this passage has a broad application.
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • What a disastrous attempt on your part. You dug pretty deep to pull this one out of that heretical hat of yours.
                            It refers to all prayers and how the Holy Spirit always intercedes.
                            He does so even in silent prayers where no one (including Mary) can know except the Omniscient God.
                            Last edited by foudroyant; 08-18-2014, 02:02 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                              What a disastrous attempt on your part. You dug pretty deep to pull this one out of that heretical hat of yours.
                              It refers to all prayers and how the Holy Spirit always intercedes.
                              He does so even in silent prayers where no one (including Mary) can know except the Omniscient God.
                              Eh, no, actually. It just states that it is a intercessor, it doesn't state that it's the 'only' intercessor.
                              Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                              -Thomas Aquinas

                              I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                              -Hernando Cortez

                              What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                              -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                              Comment


                              • Guzik: The Holy Spirit’s help in intercession is perfect, because He searches the hearts of those whom He helps, and He is able to guide our prayers according to the will of God.
                                http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=44&ch=8

                                Omniscience is what is required.
                                Besides God being omniscient let's see your list as to who else falls in this category.

                                Comment

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