Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

[foudroyant]

Most holy belongs to God alone (cf. Revelation 15:4).
What you have is people being referred to as "most holy" with zero passages from Scripture to associate them with it in prayer/worship.

That's a no-no.



Furthermore, this ties into being "most glorious". The prayer reads that she is "most glorious". Again, only God is most glorious.

[robrecht]

Most holy belongs to God alone (cf. Revelation 15:4).
What you have is people being referred to as "most holy".

That's a no-no.

Tell that to Jesus, Paul, John and James. I'm sure they will be very impressed with your expert knowledge of their languages! 'Completely' holy in the sense of complete and whole is a better rendering than 'most holy'. We are all called to be holy and perfect as our heavenly father is perfect. We are called saints even while on this earth; how much more so in heaven, when we worship God for all eternity with perfect praise.

I'll leave you with this one last bit of heavenly liturgy:

[foudroyant]

I don't have to tell God since he already taught this in the Bible.

Yes, let's worship God for all eternity with perfect praise...not worshiping any other besides Him.
And that means not praying to any other besides Him because....

Every time prayer is used in the Bible it means worship is taking place.....100% of the time.


Eerdman's Dictionary of the Bible: In sum, both the OT and the NT portray prayer as a principal means by which Creator and creature are bound together in an ongoing, vital, and mutually important partnership (Samuel E. Balentine, Prayer, page 1079, David Noel Freedman, Editor).

The RCC and others come bumbling along and say "Hey, it's also creature to creature"!

What a bunch of heretics.

[robrecht]

I don't have to tell God since he already taught this in the Bible.

Let's worship God for all eternity with perfect praise...not worshiping any other besides Him.
And that means not praying to any other because....

Every time prayer is used in the Bible it means worship is taking place.....100% of the time.

Eerdman's Dictionary of the Bible: In sum, both the OT and the NT portray prayer as a principal means by which Creator and creature are bound together in an ongoing, vital, and mutually important partnership (Samuel E. Balentine, Prayer, page 1079, David Noel Freedman, Editor).

The RCC and others come bumbling along and say "Hey, it's also creature to creature"!

What a bunch of moronic idiots.

I think it is probable that Jesus and James both learned this sense of communal, heavenly worship from their own contemporary Jewish worship. We see this already in the Dead Sea Scrolls and it is not surprising that this is built upon the praise of the seraphim in Isaiah. I don't think St James was a moronic idiot. I don't think the divine liturgy of St James was actually composed by him but it is entirely possible that this key element of the liturgy does date back to the Jewish origins of Christian worship.

[foudroyant]

I'm still waiting for a passage where anyone else but God is prayed to in the Bible and it is an ok thing to do.

[robrecht]

I'm still waiting for a passage where anyone else but God is prayed to in the Bible and it is an ok thing to do.

Recall that you declined to discuss the implications of the letter of James and the passage where the angel Gabriel and Mary speak with each other and dismissed other angelic conversations by claiming the angels were actually God. That is clearly not the case in some passages, when for example the angel is given a name (Gabriel with Zecharaiah, Joseph & Mary) or when the angel intercedes with God on behalf of people (eg, the book of Zechariah) or offers our prayers to God (Revelation). But, more important than these passages, the divine worship of the Church long predated your impoverished doctrine of personal interpretation of sola scriptura. If you base all your beliefs on your own private interpretation of scripture and only on your own private interpretation of scripture and despise and calumniate the long traditions of apostolic Christianity, the fathers of the church, the traditional divine liturgies, etc, you will never be able to learn anything from anyone. You close yourself off in your own world of your own making, which is actually the technical definition of the Greek work 'idiot', ie, someone wrapped up in himself, which is a little ironic seeing as you like to refer to others as idiots, even those who composed the ancient liturgies of the church. I will ask Mary and Gabriel to pray for you since they are obviously more righteous than me.

[TimelessTheist]

I don't have to tell God since he already taught this in the Bible.

Yes, let's worship God for all eternity with perfect praise...not worshiping any other besides Him.
And that means not praying to any other besides Him because....

Every time prayer is used in the Bible it means worship is taking place.....100% of the time.


Eerdman's Dictionary of the Bible: In sum, both the OT and the NT portray prayer as a principal means by which Creator and creature are bound together in an ongoing, vital, and mutually important partnership (Samuel E. Balentine, Prayer, page 1079, David Noel Freedman, Editor).

The RCC and others come bumbling along and say "Hey, it's also creature to creature"!

What a bunch of heretics.

[foudroyant]

Recall that you declined to discuss the implications of the letter of James and the passage where the angel Gabriel and Mary speak with each other and dismissed other angelic conversations by claiming the angels were actually God. That is clearly not the case in some passages, when for example the angel is given a name (Gabriel with Zecharaiah, Joseph & Mary) or when the angel intercedes with God on behalf of people (eg, the book of Zechariah) or offers our prayers to God (Revelation). But, more important than these passages, the divine worship of the Church long predated your impoverished doctrine of personal interpretation of sola scriptura. If you base all your beliefs on your own private interpretation of scripture and only on your own private interpretation of scripture and despise and calumniate the long traditions of apostolic Christianity, the fathers of the church, the traditional divine liturgies, etc, you will never be able to learn anything from anyone. You close yourself off in your own world of your own making, which is actually the technical definition of the Greek work 'idiot', ie, someone wrapped up in himself, which is a little ironic seeing as you like to refer to others as idiots, even those who composed the ancient liturgies of the church. I will ask Mary and Gabriel to pray for you since they are obviously more righteous than me.

Nowhere in James does it teach to pray to those who have departed.
When conversing with angels I asked for evidence that they can be able to hear multiple silent requests at the same time. You didn't produce anything.
You will ask a demonic "Mary" and a "demonic" Gabriel for the real ones know that God alone is to be prayed to.

Post #688 is still not being addressed:
Let them praise the name of the LORD, For His name alone is exalted; His glory is above earth and heaven. (Psalm 148:13, NASB)

The only one due praise by every person is God. This is because His name ALONE is exalted. By offering praises (yes, this is prayer here) to Mary the RCC and others who pray to her are assigning her a position which God alone possesses.
----
Here's another:
Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me and know my anxious thoughts (Psalm 139:23, NASB)
Like David, I can confidently pray to God and ask Him the same thing.
Can you do so to Mary?

[foudroyant]

Yeah keep pounding your head against the wall and perhaps it will knock some sense into it because you can't produce a single passage which shows prayer is not worship.

The Bible makes it clear that prayer is worship....100% of the time...but you heretics come along and teach otherwise. Yeah you figured out that you can pray to something/someone other than God. Total arrogance and stupidity on your part.


Eerdman's Dictionary of the Bible: In sum, both the OT and the NT portray prayer as a principal means by which Creator and creature are bound together in an ongoing, vital, and mutually important partnership (Samuel E. Balentine, Prayer, page 1079, David Noel Freedman, Editor).

[tabibito]

Yeah keep pounding your head against the wall and perhaps it will knock some sense into it because you can't produce a single passage which shows prayer is not worship.

The Bible makes it clear that prayer is worship....100% of the time...but you heretics come along and teach otherwise. Yeah you figured out that you can pray to something/someone other than God. Total arrogance and stupidity on your part.


Eerdman's Dictionary of the Bible: In sum, both the OT and the NT portray prayer as a principal means by which Creator and creature are bound together in an ongoing, vital, and mutually important partnership (Samuel E. Balentine, Prayer, page 1079, David Noel Freedman, Editor).

Eerdman's dictionary doesn't claim that to be the sole purpose of prayer. It simply explains the primary purpose of prayer directed to God. You're making false claims about what the dictionary says.
The Bible never defines prayer as worship. It even records that people pray while they are worshipping. You're making false claims about what the Bible says.

And the sad part is: there are parts of the Bible which can be legitimately used to call Rome's teachings about the saints into question. You haven't shown even the slightest inclination to search them out.

[foudroyant]

Eerdman's dictionary doesn't claim that to be the sole purpose of prayer. It simply explains the primary purpose of prayer directed to God. You're making false claims about what the dictionary says.
The Bible never defines prayer as worship. It even records that people pray while they are worshipping. You're making false claims about what the Bible says.

In sum, both the OT and the NT portray prayer as a principal means by which Creator and creature AND SOMETIMES CREATURE AND CREATURE are bound together in an ongoing, vital, and mutually important partnership.

That's your mythical rendition.


What a bunch of garbage and vomit you put out.
It stinks something horrendously nasty.

[tabibito]

In sum, both the OT and the NT portray prayer as a principal means by which Creator and creature AND SOMETIMES CREATURE AND CREATURE are bound together in an ongoing, vital, and mutually important partnership.

That's your mythical rendition.


What a bunch of garbage and vomit you put out.
It stinks something horrendously nasty.

You have so little respect for the truth that you will misrepresent the contents of theological dictionaries if it suits your purpose, and so little respect for God that you will even go so far as to misrepresent the contents of scripture. I hardly expect that you will treat what I say any differently.

[foudroyant]

I first cited it correctly.
Next I added to the definition that would accommodate your heresy.

[tabibito]

I first cited it correctly.
Next I added to the definition that would accommodate your heresy.

I knew what you were doing with that lame block-capitals comment.

What a bunch of garbage and vomit you put out.
It stinks something horrendously nasty.

That you regard truth as a thing that "stinks something horrendously nasty" is, of course, only to be expected.

[foudroyant]

That you regard truth as a thing that "stinks something horrendously nasty" is, of course, only to be expected.

Truth: Every prayer in the Bible is worship.