Announcement

Collapse

Ecclesiology 201 Guidelines

Discussion on matters of general mainstream Christian churches. What are the differences between Catholics and protestants? How has the charismatic movement affected the church? Are Southern baptists different from fundamentalist baptists? It is also for discussions about the nature of the church.

This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and theists. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions. Additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • From the divine liturgy of St. James:
    Then the Priest prays:

    Verily it is becoming and right, proper and due to praise You, to sing of You, to bless You, to worship You, to glorify You, to give You thanks, Maker of every creature visible and invisible, the treasure of eternal good things, the fountain of life and immortality, God and Lord of all:

    Whom the heavens of heavens praise, and all the host of them; the sun, and the moon, and all the choir of the stars; earth, sea, and all that is in them; Jerusalem, the heavenly assembly, and church of the first-born that are written in heaven; spirits of just men and of prophets; souls of martyrs and of apostles; angels, archangels, thrones, dominions, principalities, and authorities, and dread powers; and the many-eyed cherubim, and the six-winged seraphim, which cover their faces with two wings, their feet with two, and with two they fly, crying one to another with unresting lips, with unceasing praises:

    (Aloud.)

    With loud voice singing the victorious hymn of Your majestic glory, crying aloud, praising, shouting, and saying:—

    The People:

    Holy, holy, holy, O Lord of Sabaoth, the heaven and the earth are full of Your glory. Hosanna in the highest; blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest.

    This is the sense I spoke of early in this thread of our praying together with all the angels and saints. This liturgical prayer is traditionally attributed to St James in Jerusalem but I think most scholars believe it is later. And further along in the prayer:
    The Priest: ... Remember, O Lord, according to the multitude of Your mercy and compassion, me also, Your humble and unprofitable servant; and the deacons who surround Your holy altar, and graciously give them a blameless life, keep their ministry undefiled, and purchase for them a good degree, that we may find mercy and grace, with all the saints that have been well pleasing to You since the world began, to generation and generation— grandsires, sires, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, martyrs, confessors, teachers, saints, and every just spirit made perfect in the faith of Your Christ.

    XXXV. Hail, Mary, highly favoured: the Lord is with You; blessed are you among women, and blessed the fruit of your womb, for you bore the Saviour of our souls.

    The Deacons:

    XXXVI. Remember us, O Lord God. ...

    The Priest prays:

    Commemorating our all-holy, pure, most glorious, blessed Lady, the God-Mother and Ever-Virgin Mary, and all the saints that have been well-pleasing to You since the world began, let us devote ourselves, and one another, and our whole life, to Christ our God:

    The People:

    To You, O Lord. ...


    See here and here.

    In the 2nd link above and here, that last part reads:
    Let us commemorate our all-holy, pure, most glorious, blessed Lady, God-mother and ever-virgin Mary, and all the holy and just that we may all find mercy through their prayers and intercessions.
    Last edited by robrecht; 08-16-2014, 12:28 PM.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

    Comment


    • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
      Should I accept that Paul prayed to Caesar through the good auspices of the pro-consul
      or
      Should I accept that people who call on the name of the Lord are those who have been granted the right to pray to the Lord, in the same way that Paul, being a citizen of Rome, had the right to call on Caesar.

      Decisions decisions.
      sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

      Comment


      • βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

        Comment


        • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
          From the divine liturgy of St. James:
          Then the Priest prays:

          Verily it is becoming and right, proper and due to praise You, to sing of You, to bless You, to worship You, to glorify You, to give You thanks, Maker of every creature visible and invisible, the treasure of eternal good things, the fountain of life and immortality, God and Lord of all:

          Whom the heavens of heavens praise, and all the host of them; the sun, and the moon, and all the choir of the stars; earth, sea, and all that is in them; Jerusalem, the heavenly assembly, and church of the first-born that are written in heaven; spirits of just men and of prophets; souls of martyrs and of apostles; angels, archangels, thrones, dominions, principalities, and authorities, and dread powers; and the many-eyed cherubim, and the six-winged seraphim, which cover their faces with two wings, their feet with two, and with two they fly, crying one to another with unresting lips, with unceasing praises:

          (Aloud.)

          With loud voice singing the victorious hymn of Your majestic glory, crying aloud, praising, shouting, and saying:—

          The People:

          Holy, holy, holy, O Lord of Sabaoth, the heaven and the earth are full of Your glory. Hosanna in the highest; blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest.

          This is the sense I spoke of early in this thread of our praying together with all the angels and saints. This liturgical prayer is traditionally attributed to St James in Jerusalem but I think most scholars believe it is later. And further along in the prayer:
          The Priest: ... Remember, O Lord, according to the multitude of Your mercy and compassion, me also, Your humble and unprofitable servant; and the deacons who surround Your holy altar, and graciously give them a blameless life, keep their ministry undefiled, and purchase for them a good degree, that we may find mercy and grace, with all the saints that have been well pleasing to You since the world began, to generation and generation— grandsires, sires, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, martyrs, confessors, teachers, saints, and every just spirit made perfect in the faith of Your Christ.

          XXXV. Hail, Mary, highly favoured: the Lord is with You; blessed are you among women, and blessed the fruit of your womb, for you bore the Saviour of our souls.

          The Deacons:

          XXXVI. Remember us, O Lord God. ...

          The Priest prays:

          Commemorating our all-holy, pure, most glorious, blessed Lady, the God-Mother and Ever-Virgin Mary, and all the saints that have been well-pleasing to You since the world began, let us devote ourselves, and one another, and our whole life, to Christ our God:

          The People:

          To You, O Lord. ...


          See here and here.

          In the 2nd link above and here, that last part reads:
          Let us commemorate our all-holy, pure, most glorious, blessed Lady, God-mother and ever-virgin Mary, and all the holy and just that we may all find mercy through their prayers and intercessions.
          No Bible passage where prayer is properly directed to none other but God.

          Eerdman's Dictionary of the Bible: In sum, both the OT and the NT portray prayer as a principal means by which Creator and creature are bound together in an ongoing, vital, and mutually important partnership (Samuel E. Balentine, Prayer, page 1079, David Noel Freedman, Editor).

          Comment


          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            Should I accept that Paul prayed to Caesar through the good auspices of the pro-consul
            or
            Should I accept that people who call on the name of the Lord are those who have been granted the right to pray to the Lord, in the same way that Paul, being a citizen of Rome, had the right to call on Caesar.

            Decisions decisions.
            Paul didn't call on the name of the Lord to Caesar.
            Decisions? Well that was easy.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              Exactly. A pity he's too blinded by his dogmatic assertions to see that.
              Too bad Piggy has not one Bible passage in his favor.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                Absolutely false. I do not worship Mary and have never done so. I have not done what you accuse me of doing and you are not able to know my heart and hence have no way of knowing if what you say is true.
                You are defending the blasphemous practice. Furthermore, in the citation of mine which you gave I did not write "you".

                Comment


                • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                  You are defending the blasphemous practice. Furthermore, in the citation of mine which you gave I did not write "you".
                  Nonsense. I have never defended blasphemy of any kind.
                  βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                  ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                    No Bible passage where prayer is properly directed to none other but God.

                    Eerdman's Dictionary of the Bible: In sum, both the OT and the NT portray prayer as a principal means by which Creator and creature are bound together in an ongoing, vital, and mutually important partnership (Samuel E. Balentine, Prayer, page 1079, David Noel Freedman, Editor).
                    This post is completely irrelevant to my quotations from the liturgy of St James. Have you nothing to say about the ancient prayers of the Church. Do you also think the divine liturgy of St James is idolatrous or blasphemous?
                    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                      Nonsense. I have never defended blasphemy of any kind.
                      You are now.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                        This post is completely irrelevant to my quotations from the liturgy of St James. Have you nothing to say about the ancient prayers of the Church. Do you also think the divine liturgy of St James is idolatrous or blasphemous?

                        This is absolutely blasphemous:

                        "Commemorating our all-holy, pure, most glorious, blessed Lady, the God-Mother and Ever-Virgin Mary, and all the saints that have been well-pleasing to You since the world began, let us devote ourselves, and one another, and our whole life, to Christ our God"

                        God is the only one who is all holy.
                        Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For all the nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed (Revelation 15:4, NASB).

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                          You are now.
                          Nonsense. The ancient liturgy of the church and the practice of the majority of Christians around the world is neither blasphemous nor idolatrous. What particular group of Christianity do you belong, by the way, that thinks it can condemn the practice of so many others?
                          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                          Comment


                          • They call Mary "all holy". Only God is all holy.
                            In fact, the passage in Revelation where it teaches this about Him calls for the universal worship of Him.
                            Last edited by foudroyant; 08-16-2014, 08:18 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                              They call Mary "all holy". Only God is all holy.
                              In fact, the passage in Revelation where it teaches this about Him calls for the universal worship of Him.
                              The author of the book of revelation refers to all the saints as holy, as does Paul. You really do not think the angels and saints in heaven are holy? Jesus calls all of us to be perfect as our heavenly father is perfect. You really should read the Bible more.
                              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                              Comment


                              • No one else but God is "all holy".
                                In fact, it is His name (Psalm 111:9; Isaiah 57:15; Luke 1:49).
                                Last edited by foudroyant; 08-16-2014, 08:27 PM.

                                Comment

                                widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                                Working...
                                X