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Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
    you can't quote the entirety of my post because it's obvious even to you that your argument can be refuted with only a few words.
    The fact that you go against all of them proves the kind of person I am dealing with. If you can't even get something this basic in order then it is useless trying to get anything else through to you.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
      I am in agreement with Spart, OBP and Leonhard here.
      Your losername says it all.

      Comment


      • #33
        This argument will not be solved either way by appeal to terms like latria and dulia and hyperdulia. The theoretical distinctions between them might or might not matter in the practice of some particular person, just as the honor that we give to a country, or a romantic interest, or a family member, or a religious, political, or cultural leader might practically speaking supersede our devotion to God and thus become a form of idolatry.

        The other complication is that when we come from different cultures, we are prone to misread each other's signals. A Brazilian friend once asked my sister why Americans think snot is so valuable. Huh? We don't. Why did he say that? He had noticed that when we clean our nose, we blow into a tissue or handkerchief, which we then carry around in our pocket. (Apparently Brazilians just spray their snot on the ground or something. I don't know.) He interpreted this as a sign of the value that we assigned to our mucus, based on his own cultural cues applied to our behavior.

        This same issue in religious discussions makes it difficult to have cross-cultural debates about the meanings of different practices. Do American Christians worship a fir tree in December? An egg-laying bunny in April? The Stars and Stripes in July? And so on. We have been taught that such practices should not be construed as contrary with the First Commandment or Second Commandment of the Decalogue. That doesn't make it so, though. So too with Protestants looking at Roman practices regarding statues or candles or Mary, or Eastern Orthodox practices regarding icons. We shouldn't just assume that they are clearly engaging in idolatry simply because their spiritual habits differ from ours. Conversely, they are not off of the hook of testing their own hearts as to whether they really are being idolatrous, even though they have been raised to assume that they are not.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by RBerman View Post
          We shouldn't just assume that they are clearly engaging in idolatry simply because their spiritual habits differ from ours. Conversely, they are not off of the hook of testing their own hearts as to whether they really are being idolatrous, even though they have been raised to assume that they are not.
          The RCC do admit they pray to Mary. This use of prayer is always used in the Bible in terms of worship.

          I'd like to see one example where it doesn't.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
            The RCC do admit they pray to Mary. This use of prayer is always used in the Bible in terms of worship. I'd like to see one example where it doesn't.
            Both of those are slippery words. Historically, to "pray" was just to ask some one something. They might be your parent, or your friend, or your boss, not necessarily God. Similarly "worship" was just respect or esteem in general, whether idolatrous or not. It just meant that you felt someone was "worth" something.

            That said, it's not a stretch to think that the lofty titles ascribed to Mary might mean that some people thinking of her in those ways step over the line into idolatry. Again, it doesn't mean anything that a person has been assured that adoring Mary is by definition not idolatry. It still could be. Functionally, I'd argue that if someone's first thought in times of trouble is, "Help me, Blessed Virgin!" rather than, "Help me, Lord Jesus!" they probably have an idolatrous view of Mary rather than just a healthy respect for one of God's people.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by RBerman View Post
              Both of those are slippery words. Historically, to "pray" was just to ask some one something. They might be your parent, or your friend, or your boss, not necessarily God. Similarly "worship" was just respect or esteem in general, whether idolatrous or not. It just meant that you felt someone was "worth" something.

              That said, it's not a stretch to think that the lofty titles ascribed to Mary might mean that some people thinking of her in those ways step over the line into idolatry. Again, it doesn't mean anything that a person has been assured that adoring Mary is by definition not idolatry. It still could be. Functionally, I'd argue that if someone's first thought in times of trouble is, "Help me, Blessed Virgin!" rather than, "Help me, Lord Jesus!" they probably have an idolatrous view of Mary rather than just a healthy respect for one of God's people.
              We know though in what sense prayer and worship are being used depending on the situation. The lexicons clearly make this distinction.


              1. In worship, narrowly conceived, men and women recognize that God himself is of highest worth. They give to him their highest respect...Because others are creatures of God, they are due respect, but not the highest respect that only God deserves. Our ultimate affection is focused on God himself (4:950, The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible, Prayer, G.R. Lewis).
              2. NIDNTT: It is significant that, wherever the NT speaks of requests made to God, it emphasizes that such requests are heard (cf. Matt. 6:8; 7:7-11; 18:19; 21:22; Jn. 14:13f.; 15:7, 16; 16:23f., 26; 1 Jn. 3:22; 5:14f.; Jas. 1:5). It is as if the NT witnesses wished particularly to encourage men to pray, by assuring the suppliant that his requests are heard by God. The NT is aware that this certainty keeps all prayer alive; let such certainty become weakened or diminished through doubt, and prayer dies...In prayer we are never to forget whom we are addressing: the living God, the almighty One with whom nothing is impossible, and from whom therefore all things may be expected (2:857, Prayer, H. Schonweiss).
              3. NIDOTTE: Prayer is, indeed a serious matter. It is regarded in the Bible as the most fundamental of all expressions of religion. It concerns the deepest feelings and most central motivation of the persons who are offering their prayer to their God, and it concerns the covenant relationship, with its blessings and sanctions, as the inevitable fabric of the living communion between the people and their God. To pray is an act of faith in the almighty and gracious God, who responds to the prayers of his people (4:1062, Prayer, P.A. Verhoef).
              4. Harper's Bible Dictionary: the act of petitioning, praising, giving thanks, or confessing to God (Arland J. Hultgren, Prayer, page 816).
              5. Eerdman's Dictionary of the Bible: In sum, both the OT and the NT portray prayer as a principal means by which Creator and creature are bound together in an ongoing, vital, and mutually important partnership (Samuel E. Balentine, Prayer, page 1079, David Noel Freedman, Editor).

              So I would still like to see an example of prayer in the Bible that isn't worship.
              Last edited by foudroyant; 04-03-2014, 05:15 PM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                So I would still like to see an example of prayer in the Bible that isn't worship.
                How many examples would you like?

                Genesis 12:13 Say, I pray thee, that thou art my sister, that I may fare well for thy sake, and that my life may be preserved by thee.

                Genesis 13:8-9 Then said Abram unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between thee and me, neither between mine herdsmen and thine herdsmen: for we be brethren. Is not the whole land before thee? depart I pray thee from me: if thou wilt take the left hand, then I will go to the right: or if thou go to the right hand, then I will take the left.

                Genesis 16:2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the Lord hath restrained me from childbearing, I pray thee go in unto my maid: it may be that I shall receive a child by her. And Abram obeyed the voice of Sarai.

                Genesis 19:1-2 And in the evening there came two Angels to Sodom: and Lot sat at the gate of Sodom, and Lot saw them, and rose up to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face to the ground. And he said, See my lords, I pray you turn in now into your servant’s house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early and go your ways. Who said, Nay, but we will abide in the street all night.

                Genesis 19:7 And [Lot] said, I pray you, my brethren, do not so wickedly.

                Genesis 19:17-18 And when they had brought them out, the Angel said, Escape for thy life: look not behind thee, neither tarry thou in all the plain: escape into the mountain, lest thou be destroyed. And Lot said unto them, Not so, I pray thee, my Lord.

                Genesis 23:12-13 Then Abraham bowed himself before the people of the land, And spake unto Ephron in the audience of the people of the country, saying, Seeing thou wilt give it, I pray thee, hear me, I will give the price of the field: receive it of me, and I will bury my dead there.

                And so on, hundreds of times. "Pray" means "request." In modern Protestant usage, the word has become specialized so that we only use it with respect to God, as your dictionaries show. But that's not the only meaning.
                pray [prey] verb (used with object)
                1. to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).
                2. to offer (a prayer).
                3. to bring, put, etc., by praying: to pray a soul into heaven.
                4. to make earnest petition to (a person).
                5. to make petition or entreaty for; crave: She prayed his forgiveness.

                Comment


                • #38
                  He still hasn't answered that passage in Revelations 5:8, where the Saints are depicted handing "the prayers of the people" to God. If that's not Saints interceding on behalf of the people, then what is it?
                  Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                  -Thomas Aquinas

                  I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                  -Hernando Cortez

                  What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                  -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
                    I am grateful Mary is at peace and not having to be troubled by us pestering her constantly. No one in the NT asked a departed saint to pray for them. One would think Paul would have prayed to Stephen to pray for him.
                    You're a Protestant? Huh, didn't know that.
                    Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                    -Thomas Aquinas

                    I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                    -Hernando Cortez

                    What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                    -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by RBerman View Post
                      How many examples would you like?

                      Genesis 12:13 Say, I pray thee, that thou art my sister, that I may fare well for thy sake, and that my life may be preserved by thee.

                      Genesis 13:8-9 Then said Abram unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between thee and me, neither between mine herdsmen and thine herdsmen: for we be brethren. Is not the whole land before thee? depart I pray thee from me: if thou wilt take the left hand, then I will go to the right: or if thou go to the right hand, then I will take the left.

                      Genesis 16:2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the Lord hath restrained me from childbearing, I pray thee go in unto my maid: it may be that I shall receive a child by her. And Abram obeyed the voice of Sarai.

                      Genesis 19:1-2 And in the evening there came two Angels to Sodom: and Lot sat at the gate of Sodom, and Lot saw them, and rose up to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face to the ground. And he said, See my lords, I pray you turn in now into your servant’s house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early and go your ways. Who said, Nay, but we will abide in the street all night.

                      Genesis 19:7 And [Lot] said, I pray you, my brethren, do not so wickedly.

                      Genesis 19:17-18 And when they had brought them out, the Angel said, Escape for thy life: look not behind thee, neither tarry thou in all the plain: escape into the mountain, lest thou be destroyed. And Lot said unto them, Not so, I pray thee, my Lord.

                      Genesis 23:12-13 Then Abraham bowed himself before the people of the land, And spake unto Ephron in the audience of the people of the country, saying, Seeing thou wilt give it, I pray thee, hear me, I will give the price of the field: receive it of me, and I will bury my dead there.

                      And so on, hundreds of times. "Pray" means "request." In modern Protestant usage, the word has become specialized so that we only use it with respect to God, as your dictionaries show. But that's not the only meaning.
                      pray [prey] verb (used with object)
                      1. to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).
                      2. to offer (a prayer).
                      3. to bring, put, etc., by praying: to pray a soul into heaven.
                      4. to make earnest petition to (a person).
                      5. to make petition or entreaty for; crave: She prayed his forgiveness.
                      This completely ignores what I wrote in Post 36.
                      See the first sentence and then the citations.

                      See also Thayer
                      http://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexic...gs=G1189&t=KJV
                      Last edited by foudroyant; 04-03-2014, 06:15 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
                        He still hasn't answered that passage in Revelations 5:8, where the Saints are depicted handing "the prayers of the people" to God. If that's not Saints interceding on behalf of the people, then what is it?
                        They can transmit them but nowhere does the text say or teach that they are prayed "to".

                        That you can not prove.

                        Wishful thinking won't help.
                        Last edited by foudroyant; 04-03-2014, 06:20 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                          This completely ignores what I wrote in Post 36.
                          See the first sentence and then the citations.
                          I read it and responded. If you don't have any more substantive response to my comments, then I do not to yours, either.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            You responded to something I already addressed.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by RBerman View Post
                              This argument will not be solved either way by appeal to terms like latria and dulia and hyperdulia. The theoretical distinctions between them might or might not matter in the practice of some particular person, just as the honor that we give to a country, or a romantic interest, or a family member, or a religious, political, or cultural leader might practically speaking supersede our devotion to God and thus become a form of idolatry.
                              Isn't this a problem of practice rather than principle?

                              Lets say a hypothetical Catholic crosses the line and starts to consider the graces of Mary's prayers as originating in her, or places her as the fourth person of The Trinity, or ignores the sacraments because she's considered superior, then something's clearly broken.

                              Since all those examples lie outside of approved Marian devotion it can't rightfully be said to be part of it.

                              We both agree that abnormal Marian devotion is abnormal.

                              Praying to Mary in a state of emergency I wouldn't say counts. Idolatry of Mary is possible, but I think you need to be more specific about what form would be idolatry.

                              I guess the real suspicion on your part is on her honorific titles, and whether God bestowed certain graces on her, such as her assumption into Heaven like Enosh, Moses and Elijah, her being born free of sin as a new Eve, her perpetual virginity, her being crowned Queen of Heaven and the greatest Saint, Mirror of Justice, Gate of Heaven... You said something to the effect that it smelled like Athena worship to you in another thread.

                              However why the Church agreed that she had these titles is a discussion of authority and our disagreement there is ultimately sola scriptura vs tradition. I take it you'd agree on that point?

                              Conversely, they are not off of the hook of testing their own hearts as to whether they really are being idolatrous, even though they have been raised to assume that they are not.
                              I haven't, I'm a fresh convert to Catholicism. Marian devotion is something I've approached carefully.

                              I definitely agree on the testing of your heart though. Same with everything. You shouldn't do anything unreflectingly.

                              If Mary is crowned Queen of Heaven by her Son and she administers the angels and enjoys a position of derived glory super omnes spesiosa. Then if I didn't honor her authority, position, beauty, etc..., I would be diminishing a work of grace by Christ and thereby diminishing Him by extension.

                              I owe her at-least as much admiration as I do my own country. More so because in Catholic theology Christ gave her as a gift to the Church.

                              Its not a zero sum game. Mary is all about Christ, and many of the prayers involve her intercession with Him. You'd need to show that my devotion to Mary makes me love Christ less. I pray to Him more than I would without that devotion; I think about the deeds of his life, death and resurrection because that's part of Mary devotion; he's more kingly and sovereign to me, he's not best-buddy-Jesus; etc...

                              Now the basic premises you might disagree with (Mary crowned Queen of Heaven and given as a gift to the Church). However I only need to defend how this works within Catholicism.

                              Whether its true is ultimately a question of the sources we build our faithes on. If sola scriptura is true I have no leg to stand on. If the bishops were given teaching authority, then vice versa.
                              Last edited by Leonhard; 04-03-2014, 06:30 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                                You responded to something I already addressed.
                                Huh? I was responding to post #36. You then told me to read post #36, the very post I quoted and to which I was responding. It's simply not true that "pray" only refers to requests made to God. Yes, that is the most common meaning of the word. No, it is not the only meaning of the word, which is why I was able to quote several out of the hundreds of times that the Bible itself uses "pray" for someone other than God.

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