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Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

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  • 2 was an if not.
    in answer 1 i wrote "yes".

    yes go ahead and explain your position.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
      2 was an if not.
      in answer 1 i wrote "yes".
      I rephrased the question so as to not be dependent on your answer to 1. Please answer the new phrasing of question 2.
      Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

      Comment


      • please explain your position.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
          please explain your position.
          Is that an invitation to explain why I think dulia is complementary to latria? If so, I'd like to ask you to give me until tomorrow to put together a post.
          Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

          Comment


          • The self same arguments used by this Foudroyant person in condemnation of prayer to the saints can be used to condemn prayer to Jesus himself, and in some denominations, that argument is so used.
            Moreover, argument soundly based on scripture can be used to demonstrate that prayer can be addressed to Jesus, and the same kind of argument can be legitimately demonstrate that prayer may be addressed to the saints.

            As to the argument that Stephen prayed to Jesus in Acts 7:59 - the word προσευχομαι does not appear in that passage, so the argument that Jesus legitimately receives προσευχομαι gains no support from that particular passage.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • ok tomorrow will be fine.
              Last edited by foudroyant; 07-31-2014, 09:50 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                As to the argument that Stephen prayed to Jesus in Acts 7:59 - the word προσευχομαι does not appear in that passage, so the argument that Jesus legitimately receives προσευχομαι gains no support from the passage itself.

                There are other words for prayer besides proseuchomai -the Lord Jesus receives this in Acts 1:24-25.

                Furthermore, whereas we see plenty of examples of prayer to the Lord Jesus we see none that are properly rendered unto created beings.

                Comment


                • This Foudroyant person has provided no argument in support of the concept that προσευχομαι is legitimately addressed to Jesus. He does however admit that other words are legitimately translated as prayer. However, none of those other forms of prayer are reserved for use in addressing deity, and one particular word for prayer has already been demonstrated to be used with regard both to prayer addressed to a man and to God. Thus it is demonstrated that the allegation that prayer to saints is blasphemous can be supported only if it is προσευχομαι prayer, and not some other kind of prayer. The allegation that it is προσευχομαι prayer has to date been given no supporting evidence.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                    This Foudroyant person has provided no argument in support of the concept that προσευχομαι is legitimately addressed to Jesus.
                    Feel free to go here and challenge the evidence I supplied.
                    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...the-Lord-Jesus

                    I already gave you the offer to do this in Post #251 so it is indeed strange you would assert the same thing again.
                    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ng-Mary/page26
                    Last edited by foudroyant; 07-31-2014, 10:06 PM.

                    Comment


                    • While this Foudroyant person has provided evidence that other people have competently shown that Jesus is legitimately offered prayer, he has himself proffered no evidence that when prayer is addressed to Jesus, it is in fact προσευχομαι prayer, rather than some other kind of prayer. As προσευχομαι prayer alone is restricted for use in addressing deity, and other kinds of prayer may be legitimately addressed to persons other than God, nothing has been offered in support of the contention that prayer to saints is prohibited - unless it is προσευχομαι prayer.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • Acts 1:24-25 proves you wrong......again.

                        Comment


                        • Acts 1:24 may be used to support the concept that προσευχομαι prayer is in fact addressed to Jesus, however, there is no direct evidence that establishes whether the Lord being addressed is Jesus, or the Father, or God.
                          Probability is high that Jesus is in fact being addressed with that prayer, but it isn't a certainty.
                          It has been established that non προσεθχομαι prayer may be addressed to anyone, and that the Church of Rome does not teach that the saints are deities, so inevitably, prayer to the saints can not be προσευχομαι. Any claim that it is προσευχομαι is spurious.
                          This Foudroyant person's claim that prayer to the saints is προσευχομαι and therefore blasphemy is patently slanderous.
                          Last edited by tabibito; 07-31-2014, 10:28 PM.
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • Present the evidence that the Lord Jesus isn't being addressed in prayer in Acts 1:24-25.
                            By praying to the saints the Roman Catholic Church has assigned them the status of deities.

                            Can you supply one Scripture where prayer is not worship?

                            You still have not offered any Roman Catholic sources that agree with what you wrote in Post #265.........keep looking.
                            http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ng-Mary/page27
                            Last edited by foudroyant; 07-31-2014, 10:34 PM.

                            Comment


                            • The Ethiopian eunuch addressed Philip in δεομαι prayer, and most certainly did not regard Philip as a deity. It is also shown that δεομαι prayer is addressed to God in the exchange between Simon Magus and Peter. Thus, no prohibition of δεομαι prayer to the saints can be declared. The Church of Rome declares that the saints are not deities, so δεομαι prayer (or some other form of non προσευχομαι prayer) is quite obviously being offered. It is impossible to προσευχομαι someone you don't regard as a deity.
                              An honest person will acknowledge the facts, whether or not he accepts that prayer to saints may be legitimate, and I most certainly do not accept it.

                              Nor do I pretend that something is proven for simple cause that it cannot be disproven. IMO, doing so would be profoundly in violation of the Christian precept of adhering to truth.
                              Last edited by tabibito; 07-31-2014, 10:44 PM.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                                The Ethiopian eunuch addressed Philip in δεομαι prayer, and most certainly did not regard Philip as a deity. It is also shown that δεομαι prayer is addressed to God in the exchange between Simon Magus and Peter. Thus, no prohibition of δεομαι prayer to the saints can be declared. The Church of Rome declares that the saints are not deities, so δεομαι prayer (or some other form of non προσευχομαι prayer) is quite obviously being offered. It is impossible to προσευχομαι someone you don't regard as a deity.
                                An honest person will acknowledge the facts, whether or not he accepts that prayer to saints may be legitimate, and I most certainly do not accept it.

                                Nor do I pretend that something is proven for simple cause that it cannot be disproven. IMO, doing so would be profoundly in violation of the Christian precept of adhering to truth.

                                You used the same argument in Post #217 which I refuted in Post #219.
                                http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ng-Mary/page22

                                Comment

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