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Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

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  • tabibito
    replied
    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    To call upon the name of the Lord is a prayer and it is always worship (cf. 1 Corinthians 1:2).
    Yet another self proclaimed definition. Humpty Dumpty could take lessons from Foudroyant.
    "call upon (επικαλεω) the name of the Lord"

    And Paul επικαλεω-d Caesar. Paul assuredly was not worshipping Caesar there. Foudroyant just torpedoed his own argument.

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    I am repeating myself because there is no other way around it.
    Every prayer in the Bible is an act of worship.
    Thus they have zero Scriptural warrant to engage in what they are doing.
    Any request made to someone else is a prayer. There are points - which have already been cited - where prayer has been addressed to a man. "Every prayer is an act of worship" is outright false, and you have attempted to avoid the fact by introducing irrelevancies regarding whether a saint can know a person's heart or hear and understand the prayer of multitudes.

    Leave a comment:


  • Spartacus
    replied
    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    That's why I wrote calling upon the name of the Lord.
    This responds to my post... how, exactly?

    Still no passages supplied showing that prayer is not worship.
    Because I still don't need one. You have provided no compelling argument as to why I should have one.

    Leave a comment:


  • foudroyant
    replied
    That's why I wrote calling upon the name of the Lord. You asked for a verse where God shows us that prayer is worship. I gave 1 Corinthians 1:2.

    Still no passages supplied showing that prayer is not worship.

    Leave a comment:


  • Spartacus
    replied
    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    1. The fallacy is that you will reject that to call upon the name of the Lord means to worship the Lord.
    Which doesn't mean that calling on the name of another person is necessarily worshiping them. nor does it exclude the possibility of, e.g. metonymy.

    2. But if it disagrees with official Catholic teaching guess what side they agree with?
    Do you even know what a dogmatic constitution is?

    3. Verse has already been supplied (1 Corinthians 1:2).

    As I wrote before.....

    Your turn.
    The verse still doesn't prove what you say it does.

    Leave a comment:


  • foudroyant
    replied
    1. The fallacy is that you will reject that to call upon the name of the Lord means to worship the Lord.
    2. But if it disagrees with official Catholic teaching guess what side they agree with?
    3. Verse has already been supplied (1 Corinthians 1:2).

    As I wrote before.....

    Your turn.

    Leave a comment:


  • Spartacus
    replied
    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    You will not accept how the words of the Bible are properly defined.
    I know how they're defined, and I also understand that equivocation is a fallacy.

    The RRC makes the claim they are the one true church.
    Actually, as was clarified in paragraph 8 of Lumen Gentium, Vatican II's dogmatic constitution on the Church, the true Church subsists in the Catholic Church-- that doesn't mean it's limited to its visible borders.

    Any Catholics willing to supply a passage from the Bible where prayer is not worship? Go ahead and so.
    We don't need a verse to support our arguments. You do. And because you can't, you make off-topic assertions.

    Leave a comment:


  • foudroyant
    replied
    You will not accept how the words of the Bible are properly defined.

    The RRC makes the claim they are the one true church.
    Any Catholics willing to supply a passage from the Bible where prayer is not worship? Go ahead and so.

    Leave a comment:


  • Spartacus
    replied
    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    1. That's not how the words of the Bible are properly defined.

    2. No, the RCC claims to be the one true church thus THEY have to demonstrate that they are.
    Neither of these points, if true, would in any way demonstrate that 1 cor 1:2 proves that all prayer is worship. You are not constructing sound arguments.

    Your turn.
    As I have already demonstrated, my argument in no way depends on having explicit Scriptural support, but yours does. I don't need to provide Scriptural support because my chain of logic does not necessitate it. You do need to provide explicit Scriptural support, because your logic depends on having explicit Scriptural support.

    Leave a comment:


  • foudroyant
    replied
    1. That's not how the words of the Bible are properly defined.
    2. No, the RCC claims to be the one true church thus THEY have to demonstrate that they are.

    Your turn.

    Leave a comment:


  • Spartacus
    replied
    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    That's what to call upon the name of the Lord means.
    Plenty of citations can be given but of course you will deny them all because the definition refutes your heresy.
    If we replace the words "call upon the name of the lord" with "pray to God", we still don't get anything like what you assert


    I am still waiting for a passage where prayer is not worship. I have been asking this repeatedly and nothing has been supplied.

    Your turn.
    You have yet to demonstrate that I need one. You say that Scripture is explicitly in your favor but can provide no definitive proof. I argue that Scripture does not definitively weigh in on the matter one way or the other. My argument doesn't rely on having an explicit Scripture verse. Yours does. Therefore, I don't need to use Scripture to support my argument, but you do.

    Leave a comment:


  • foudroyant
    replied
    That's what to call upon the name of the Lord means.
    Plenty of citations can be given but of course you will deny them all because the definition refutes your heresy.

    I am still waiting for a passage where prayer is not worship. I have been asking this repeatedly and nothing has been supplied.

    Your turn.

    Leave a comment:


  • Spartacus
    replied
    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    To call upon the name of the Lord is a prayer and it is always worship (cf. 1 Corinthians 1:2).
    To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:

    Doesn't say that all prayer is always worship. Try again.

    Leave a comment:


  • foudroyant
    replied
    To call upon the name of the Lord is a prayer and it is always worship (cf. 1 Corinthians 1:2).

    Leave a comment:


  • Spartacus
    replied
    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    Explicit
    So the Bible is explicit on the point that, whenever prayer occurs, it is also worship. Show me the verse where it is made explicit. Show me the verse where God tells us that prayer is always worship.

    Leave a comment:

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