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Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

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  • Does Mary have the Holy Spirit? unknown - depending on precept, may have been resurrected already, maybe in something like soul sleep. The former being the Church of Rome's precept, it would then become a matter of whether the Holy Spirit remains with a person who has become like Christ (post resurrection). Still unknown - nothing in the scriptural record addresses the issue.

    Is the Holy Spirit God? Indubitably

    Is there a limit to what God can do through a person? Seems not.

    Is there some biblical text you can point me to to support that answer? Not a one as far as I know. (except for the Holy Spirit being God, that is)
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • Nothing in Scripture even hints at myriads of people speaking silently within their hearts and anyone else but God being able to fully understand all of what they express (1 Kings 8:39; 2 Chronicles 6:30).

      Comment


      • Beyond stating that "we shall be like him" the scriptures tell us almost nothing about what the resurrected person will be capable of. As far as the Bible is concerned, the matter of a resurrected person's capabilities is off topic.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • The Bible does not show one example of it being proper for any Christian to communicate with any person (except the Lord Jesus) who has departed.
          For good reason. This would constitute prayer which is worship.

          And prayer/worship is due unto God alone.
          Last edited by foudroyant; 07-30-2014, 05:08 AM.

          Comment


          • Provide the scripture that declares all prayer to be worship.
            With προσευχομαι you might have a case, but not with δεομαι - and δεομαι is also pray, as is ευχομαι, neither of which is restricted to prayer to a deity.
            To make your case, you need to show that what Rome promotes is in fact προσευχομαι. You haven't even begun to show that to be the case.

            The Bible does not show one example of it being proper for any Christian to communicate with any person (except the Lord Jesus) who has departed.
            You won't begin to make a case here either, except that you can show where and how the New Testament prohibits communication with the dead.
            Last edited by tabibito; 07-30-2014, 05:22 AM.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • I already provided several examples in the OP that prayer is worship.
              What has not been supplied is an example where prayer is not worship.

              In terms of deomai this is why Danker in his lexicon differentiates its usage. I also pointed out that prayer is used not used in the sense I described in Post #212.

              At the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet came near and said, O LORD, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, today let it be known that You are God in Israel and that I am Your servant and I have done all these things at Your word. (1 Kings 18:36, NASB)

              In 1 Kings 18:36 Elijah prayed unto the LORD but the text reads that he "said" this unto the LORD.
              The other day I "said" something to my dog.

              Guess which example above is praying and which one isn't despite the word "said" being used in both examples.

              So once again go back to Post #212 and provide an example where prayer is not worship from Scripture.
              http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ng-Mary/page22
              Last edited by foudroyant; 07-30-2014, 07:10 AM.

              Comment


              • If he "said", I'd expect the LXX to read as ειπεν. So I'll go have a look. Meanwhile, two words other than προσευχομαι also translate as pray. You still haven't shown that what Rome offers to Mary is προσευχομαι. If you can't do that, you don't have any business laying a charge of heresy or blasphemy on the basis of "prayer is worship".
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • 1 Kings 18:36 καὶ ἀνεβόησεν Ηλιου εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ εἶπεν κύριε ὁ θεὸς
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • It's a prayer.

                    I'm still waiting for a passage from the Bible where prayer is not worship (see Post #212).

                    Comment


                    • 1 Kings 18:36 καὶ ἀνεβόησεν Ηλιου εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ εἶπεν κύριε ὁ θεὸς


                      In terms of deomai this is why Danker in his lexicon differentiates its usage.
                      I also pointed out that prayer is used not used in the sense I described in Post #212.
                      The word that YOU want the Roman use of pray (to Mary) defined is of less than no significance. If they aren't using "pray" in the sense that you want the word defined so that you can justify tossing allegations at them, your allegation is false witness. So - and again - PROVE that they προσευχομαι to Mar or mark yourself a slanderer.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • Mark yourself an idiot for not supplying a passage.

                        Comment


                        • erótaó: to ask, question
                          Original Word: ἐρωτάω
                          Part of Speech: Verb
                          Transliteration: erótaó
                          Phonetic Spelling: (er-o-tah'-o)
                          Short Definition: I ask, question, request
                          Definition: (a) I ask (a question), question, (b) I request, make a request to, pray.

                          John 17:20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; - ερωταω
                          John 17:9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. - ερωταω
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • Post #234. Second sentence.

                            Comment


                            • You don't get to define which "pray" Rome uses when it promotes prayer to the saints. They say it isn't προσευχομαι, you say it is. Prove your case.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • Where do they say it is isn't proseuchomai?

                                Prove your case.

                                Comment

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