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Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

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  • I cited plenty of dictionaries that assert what I have been saying.
    You don't believe them so it is back again for me not to believe your source for the word that you used.
    And no - if a dictionary claims something, I want to see where that claim comes from. A dictionary reference that cites NO scriptural support, nor support from a full fledged grammatical analysis is nothing more than bare assertion. No-one with any common sense will accept bare assertions as proof of anything. Too many dictionary definitions derive from denominational precepts that have no basis in scripture.
    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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    • Cite one passage in Scripture where prayer is being done and it is not worship.
      Now I know RC's will say that prayer is just like talking to someone or asking someone to do something, etc.

      But I know no one (besides God) who can fully know what 1 million people with different requests are asking at the same time if they do so silently.
      Last edited by foudroyant; 07-29-2014, 04:36 AM.

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      • You really want to do that? Which of the words that translate as "prayer" do you want me to find?
        Would it not be appropriate to find out which of those words are applicable to Roman practice when they pray to saints?
        Their concept of "praying to a saint" might not translate as προσευχομαι.
        sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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        • Find anyone with just one example with the criteria I wrote about in Post #212.

          Comment


          • When Simon was rebuked for trying to buy the authority of an apostle - Peter did not tell him to προσευχομαι: he did not ask Peter to προσευχομαι, the word they used was δεομαι.
            The Ethiopian eunuch likewise said δεομαι "prithee tell me of whom the prophet speaks"

            So - if the Romans δεομαι their saints, how do you propose to prosecute any charge against them?
            Last edited by tabibito; 07-29-2014, 04:40 AM.
            sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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            • None of them fit the criteria in Post #212.

              Comment


              • Post 212 hardly sets reasonable parameters, but even so.
                Cite one passage in Scripture where prayer is being done and it is not worship.
                is in fact fulfilled by the eunuch's direct address to Philip - "I pray you" ... I feel reasonably confident that Philip wasn't being worshipped. Of course, modern translations will translate that as "I ask you" or "I beg of you", but as can be seen from the exchange between Peter and Simon, the word does have equivalence as "pray" - particularly given how ancient the Roman practice is. Or will you deny that the prayers to the saints are requests? Does Rome promote obeisance to the saints?

                If I drop back to King James - even παρακαλεω will translate as pray.

                But how about ευχομαι?
                2 Corinthians 13:7 I pray to God - Would there be a problem with ευχομαι-ing someone?

                But again - If the Roman practice is merely one of δεομαι-ing, how do you propose to prosecute a charge of heresy?
                sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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                • What is the significance of a word having only one association in the New Testament? Do we assign any significance to the fact that the only time the word "colt" is used in the New Testament, that word applies to the colt that Jesus rode? Or do we use a bit of nous and realise that the only time the word "colt" has any relation to the narrative is when a colt was set aside for use by Jesus? The fact that a word has only one use in the New Testament is, of and by itself, of no significance whatever.

                  What evidence can be advanced in support of the contention that Rome promotes προσευχομαι, rather than δεομαι of the saints? By its own testimony, Rome δεομαι-s its saints. Can anyone refute that claim? If not, a charge of blasphemy or heresy against Rome because of the practice redounds to the accuser's detriment.
                  sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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                  • Your other example doesn't work either. When the eunuch spoke to Philip he not only did so audibly but he was the only one speaking to Philip so it isn't the same as prayer to God who can fully understand all the silent prayers rendered unto Him all at once by myriads of people.

                    Here is Post #212 again:
                    Cite one passage in Scripture where prayer is being done and it is not worship.
                    Now I know RC's will say that prayer is just like talking to someone or asking someone to do something, etc.

                    But I know no one (besides God) who can fully know what 1 million people with different requests are asking at the same time if they do so silently.

                    Comment


                    • When the eunuch spoke to Philip he not only did so audibly but he was the only one speaking to Philip so it isn't the same as prayer to God who can fully understand all the silent prayers rendered unto Him all at once by myriads of people.
                      Nonetheless, the eunuch δεομαι-ed to Philip.

                      1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
                      1 Corinthians 6:3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?

                      I have no idea to what extent, or what limits might apply to, "we shall be like him." Nor do I have any idea what sort of authority or capability a man will need to make him fit to judge angels.

                      One thing is certain though, there will be far fewer limitations on a person after he is resurrected than before. So, having only the vaguest idea of what the circumstances of a resurrected person might be, I can't answer your objection.
                      sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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                      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        Nonetheless, the eunuch δεομαι-ed to Philip.
                        It still doesn't apply.

                        The Bible records people saying things to God (in prayer) but that is not anywhere near people saying things to one another.

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                        • One person δεομαι-s God, another person δεομαι-s his neighbour. The object of the action is different, but the action is the same.
                          One person προσευχομαι-s God, another δεομαι-s God. The object of the action is the same, but the action is (only subtly perhaps) different.
                          sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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                          • It's different in that myriads of people can do this at the same time to God silently and He will still be able to fully understand all of them.

                            Not so with anyone else.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                              It's different in that myriads of people can do this at the same time to God silently and He will still be able to fully understand all of them.

                              Not so with anyone else.
                              Bare assertion, and you (presumably) don't know any more than I about what a resurrected person is capable of.
                              sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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                              • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                                It's different in that myriads of people can do this at the same time to God silently and He will still be able to fully understand all of them.

                                Not so with anyone else.
                                Does Mary have the Holy Spirit?

                                Is the Holy Spirit God?

                                Is there a limit to what God can do through a person?

                                Is there some biblical text you can point me to to support that answer?
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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